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Originally posted by Krypton ...I said Israel does not get nearly the same scrutiny as Iran gets over nuclear weapons.

Israel doesn't have plans to use their nukes against the U.S. or it's interests, where-as Iran very well may. So why does that make it so hard for you understand why the U.S. is anti-Iranian?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN bush's religious views had zero to do with the war in iraq. but his views certainly do sound rather similar to yours.

I never said they were. Starting a pre-emptive war doesn't sound like something Jesus would do, would it?

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So, your contention is that US religious influence has perpetuated the US' support of israel during the entire last 6 decades or so. Some evidence more than your assertions would be welcome. seriously, the idea is retarded. if your religious right is so freaking powerful then how come we dont see republicans winning every election? you mean other than a strategic ally in the middle east?

Never said religious influence was the basis for the 60 years of support for Israel. First of all, the Cold War was the basis for our support of Israel until it ended. Post-Cold War, the ideological view now is heavily rooted in religious influence of the highest echelons of power.

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the "religious alliance" view is retarded.

I don't think you've heard guys like Pastor Haggy calling all Christians to rally behind Israel which clearly would indicate a religious alliance of some sort.

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Fuck, you're so short-sighted. Everything you understand is tied to your current understanding of american politics and its relationship to george bush. The idea that the US has been on a "morality crusade" during the last 60 years is absurd. If it IS on a crusade now, well, im sure it will end at some stage with a new government. Why is everything always so extreme with you? The sky is always falling in your world, I don’t get it.

What do you call the drug prohibition? That is more than 60 years old. How about bringing democracy to Iraq. That sounds a lot like a morality crusade to me.

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If you are a proponent of war on religious grounds, then yes, it is.

I am clearly against pre-emptive warfare, so where did you get the idea I wanted to go to war?

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all we, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, is asking is for some f**king transparency. thats it!

Transparency? That's funny. Israel does not have inspections of their sites, do they now? Israel even denies the existance of the program. No one, including yourself, even gives that a second thought. . .

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Originally posted by Krypton The reason Islamic militants are fighting in Palestine today is because of their failed state status and their belief that they were wronged in 1947.

right.

so Arabs and Muslims and Jews all baked eachother pies and played songs prior to the Partition Plan?

...not because Jews were considered beastly animals since, i don't know, the 7th century?

did you say you went to college?

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Originally posted by Krypton I never said they were. Starting a pre-emptive war doesn't sound like something Jesus would do, would it?

oh, because christianity is about jesus!?

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Originally posted by Krypton Post-Cold War, the ideological view now is heavily rooted in religious influence of the highest echelons of power.

no.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't think you've heard guys like Pastor Haggy calling all Christians to rally behind Israel which clearly would indicate a religious alliance of some sort.

not sure who haggy is but yes i have seen his ilk advocating israel, and some even calling for a nuclear war in the middle east to bring about armageddon. but no, these people do not pull the strings behind washington's foreign policy. such a view, in my opinion, is retarded, without evidence and only goes further to cement my opinion of you as some wacko conspiracy theorist who has found a new conspiracy of the week.

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Originally posted by Krypton What do you call the drug prohibition? That is more than 60 years old.

eh? most societies prohibit narcotics.

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Originally posted by Krypton How about bringing democracy to Iraq. That sounds a lot like a morality crusade to me.

oh, so it wasnt for WMD, or oil, or strategic interests. now its for spreading democracy. so you buy their excuse now do you? and for fucks sake, can we, even for a minute extend past your mypoic view of history and examine something OTHER than the bush administration? your government is older than that if you've never bothered to pay attention. governments and policies are transient, stop trying to paint your entire history of government with the same bush brush, its illogical and immature.

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Originally posted by Krypton Transparency? That's funny. Israel does not have inspections of their sites, do they now? Israel even denies the existance of the program. No one, including yourself, even gives that a second thought. . .

christ, who fucking cares? neither does china or russia or the UK or france. why not bark about them for awhile? - because there isnt some attractive juvenile conspiracy in relation to china and russia, so youre far less interested

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Originally posted by Krypton I never said they were. Starting a pre-emptive war doesn't sound like something Jesus would do, would it?

thats because Jesus is an Evangelical.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and nor should it. israel is a democratic government, you score points in the "trust" box when you hold real, proper elections.

Why does it matter what government we're talking about here? Every country should be subject to international law equally.

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right - so its an "international crime" if israel is developing weapons, but its not if its iran?

According to the NIE report, Iran shut down it's nuclear weapons program in 2003. The Bush admin's case against Iran wouldn't hold up for 5 minutes in a courtroom.

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Its an internal israeli matter, I really don’t see the relevance. Israel isnt considered by the international community to be a rogue state, which is why they are treated differently to iran. That's how international politics works.

Israel violated international law, therefore making them a rogue state. It does not matter how conformed Israel is to western democracy.

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This has NOTHING to do with "ethics". I have already stated, the difference is because israel is a democratic state that doesn't have ties to fringe groups all to ready to plant nuclear bombs in another state. Ive certainly never been one to defend israel's history of war crimes, but again that's really besides the point.

This is alarming, but then again, there is no evidence to say Iran has a nuclear weapons program, unlike Israel where there is 100% proof of an illegal program.

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the reason Islamic militants are fighting is because that’s what islamic militants do. If they werent fighting israel and the great satan they'd just be figthing each other, don’t be naïve.

Oh, so they like death and destruction as a pasttime right? Come on man! Look at the economic/geopolitical of the region. Autocratic regimes, economic poverty, and the question of what to do with the failed state of Palestine. If you don't understand the mind of a jihadist, I strongly suggest you study up on why they fight. It's not just for fun, I can tell you that!

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finally - you've demonstrated your point. thank christ (no pun intended). Israel gets better treatment from the global community because it is a free, democratic state without avowed goals to destroy other states or links to groups that do harbour such goals. If you think this is hypocritical then its time you opened your eyes a little and examined the nature of alliances around the world - enemies are treated differently to allies. Go figure.

Depending on where you stand, this is not 100% true. Israel has already destroyed the Palestineans ability to form a state. It's the OCCUPATION. Iran does not OCCUPY any other nation does it?

Also guys, telling me to open my eyes, and that I'm narrow minded will only you this. . . because I am putting 100% in trying to understand why things are the way they are, so forgive me for coming to conclusions which you disagree with, but I didn't just pull all this out of my ass. There is something really wrong with the entire picture, and it certainly isn't all because of a bunch of crazy Islamists, though I won't minimalize their impact.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Israel doesn't have plans to use their nukes against the U.S. or it's interests, where-as Iran very well may. So why does that make it so hard for you understand why the U.S. is anti-Iranian?

You don;t even know that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, so your point is baseless.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Israel doesn't have plans to use their nukes against the U.S. or it's interests, where-as Iran very well may. So why does that make it so hard for you understand why the U.S. is anti-Iranian?

oh I see so if a country is on the good side of U.S it is ok for them have nukes?

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Originally posted by Krypton Why does it matter what government we're talking about here? Every country should be subject to international law equally.

They should, and in this case they are. Israel is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; Iran is.

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Originally posted by Krypton Transparency? That's funny.

it's the truth. some very honest, smart and non-religious people take it very seriously Iran having nuclear strike capability.

deal with it however you want but the fact remains that on an Inter-nation cooperative level Iran and only Iran remains untrustworthy for anything less than complete and total transpancy.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov They should, and in this case they are. Israel is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; Iran is.

...and Bingo was his name-o