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Originally posted by Mattsanity wtf? Im the bonified truth f4ggot

what's a "truth f@ggot"?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN hey, i have nothing at all against drug use/abuse (except for ice). but i do think the whole "i took a pill and it changed my life" is a pretty retarded statement.

Cool...I guess I misunderstood your previous post a little.

Isnt it obvious.

MDMA acts as a super antidepressant. Not only does it inhibit presynaptic reuptake, it also induces presynaptic transmission to the synaptic cleft.


What this means in english is that your opening the electrical signals that make you happier longer then anti depressants would.

Now the problem is here that you have more quickly altered the brain's plasticity, so the brain developes more systems to allow these signals to pass, once you stop medication you have all these systems in place and massive depression occurs (more then the initial depression).

The same things happens with antidepressants but at a lower level.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit Isnt it obvious. MDMA acts as a super antidepressant. Not only does it inhibit presynaptic reuptake, it also induces presynaptic transmission to the synaptic cleft. What this means in english is that your opening the electrical signals that make you happier longer then anti depressants would. Now the problem is here that you have more quickly altered the brain's plasticity, so the brain developes more systems to allow these signals to pass, once you stop medication you have all these systems in place and massive depression occurs (more then the initial depression). The same things happens with antidepressants but at a lower level.

With clinical depression you have an endogenous, malfunctioning serotonin system, before drugs were introduced. By administering drugs, you're helping to correct those "natural" defects. Sure, you could be down-regulating serotonin receptors to some degree, but what's more accurate is saying that the depressed individual has more serotonin receptors than naturally occurring serotonin. If you have 30 serotonin receptors, but they're only coming in contact with 15 serotonin molecules, but your drug bumps that up to 30 serotonin molecules, the amount of down regulation will be pretty marginable.

Now, if you take a healthy person, with a healthy serotonin neurotransmitter system, and give them long term doses of MDMA, or any SSRI for that matter, you will start to have issues. Because now you're giving someone with 30 serotonin receptors 60 serotonin molecules, which does lead to down-regulation. That down regulation is reversible, but until it does, you're stuck with a normal amount of serotonin not leading to it's desired effect because you've down regulated your serotonin receptors by abusing the drug. You're now stuck in a loop were your over-use has caused your body to need the MDMA to not be depressed. Reversible, but crappy.

So, in the case of normal SSRIs, and possibly even MDMA, if you have a preexisting depressive condition and take them, they'll do exactly what they're supposed to do with virtually no long term side effects. If you're a normal person and take MDMA but do it infrequently and responsibly, you also won't have any long term effects. But, if you're a normal person that decides to down a bunch of SSRIs or MDMA, constantly trying to bump yourself up to that next "level," you're going to be up sh*t creek in no time.

As with everything in life - everything in moderation. But, if you already have a natural defect causing clinical depression, the method in which MDMA works is quite similar to existing SSRIs.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what's a "truth f@ggot"?

Of the top of my head, it's someone who smokes weed and freaks out, thinking their heart will explode.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono As with everything in life - everything in moderation. But, if you already have a natural defect causing clinical depression, the method in which MDMA works is quite similar to existing SSRIs.

I'm not chemist or physiologist etc, but I disagree with that.

Use a car as analogy...

MDMA releases more serotonin to the brain, making you "happier", which is equivalent to burning more fuel in a car; your brain goes into overdrive, but burns it's stores of power quickly.

On the other hand, SSRI, or Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, do not release anything. They simply make the substances that are released naturally in the brain persist for longer, and, using the car analogy, can be compared to a fuel additive that improves octane rating - you're not supplying any more fuel, you're simply making use of what's there better; making things more efficient.

To the three or so people who mentioned it...who the fuck "trips" on e? It's hardly psychedelic at all, you weirdos.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog It's a load of shit. Short term (i.e today only); yes, ecstasy can make you "happy". Long term, ecstasy is a major contributor to depression.

Agreed.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono With clinical depression you have an endogenous, malfunctioning serotonin system, before drugs were introduced. By administering drugs, you're helping to correct those "natural" defects. Sure, you could be down-regulating serotonin receptors to some degree, but what's more accurate is saying that the depressed individual has more serotonin receptors than naturally occurring serotonin. If you have 30 serotonin receptors, but they're only coming in contact with 15 serotonin molecules, but your drug bumps that up to 30 serotonin molecules, the amount of down regulation will be pretty marginable.

are you sure about that? clinical depression? is there realy such a thing? Do you know how easy it is to get medication for antidepressents and how often its wrongly supplied?

Going to your seratonin analogy there. What the drug will do is block the presynaptic reuptake and thus leave more seratonin floating around to be picked up by receptors. So what happens when all the receptors are full and there is still seratonin floating around? Well the body will naturally create new receptors so now you have 40 receptors instead of 30. Now when you try to get off the medication, there is more seratonin reuptake and you have less seratonin in the synaptic cleft. THus you become more depressed then you were in the first place

so with your analogy you have 40 receptors and 15 seratonin neurotransmitter molecules to interact.


Now this isnt what happens all the time. With small dosages and physiological testing antidepressents will help with severe seratonin defficiency but a high frequency of the time, the drugs are overperscribed and you hear the horror storries of people trying to get off them with their withdrawl symptons.

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Now, if you take a healthy person, with a healthy serotonin neurotransmitter system, and give them long term doses of MDMA, or any SSRI for that matter, you will start to have issues. Because now you're giving someone with 30 serotonin receptors 60 serotonin molecules, which does lead to down-regulation. That down regulation is reversible, but until it does, you're stuck with a normal amount of serotonin not leading to it's desired effect because you've down regulated your serotonin receptors by abusing the drug. You're now stuck in a loop were your over-use has caused your body to need the MDMA to not be depressed. Reversible, but crappy.

How do you tell the difference between normal and healthy? thats the big problem.. The solution is monitoring and low drug dosages. But the problem with that is that drugs take a long time to take effect.?
Also i think with SSRI's downregulation does not occur since the drug effects pre synaptic response.

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So, in the case of normal SSRIs, and possibly even MDMA, if you have a preexisting depressive condition and take them, they'll do exactly what they're supposed to do with virtually no long term side effects. If you're a normal person and take MDMA but do it infrequently and responsibly, you also won't have any long term effects. But, if you're a normal person that decides to down a bunch of SSRIs or MDMA, constantly trying to bump yourself up to that next "level," you're going to be up sh*t creek in no time.

thats bullshit and you know it.. There is always side effects if your changing the body's natural chemistry developed from infancy. The trick to antidepressents or any drug is being able to get off them safley without side effects. and this rarley happens. Why do you think the pharmecutical companies make so much money? Because they know you'll be hooked for life, increase dosage over time and eventually permanently kill your sex drive!

And again, drugs are drugs. MDMA could be more useful for a person then prozac, it all depends on their biochemistry and dosage. IF you want ot alleiviate the depression faster you could chose mdma since it works on 2 presynaptic mechanisms instead of 1.

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As with everything in life - everything in moderation. But, if you already have a natural defect causing clinical depression, the method in which MDMA works is quite similar to existing SSRIs.

exactly, so what are we arguing about again lol.. oh yeah.. psychotherapy 1st then pharmaceuticals 2nd. Or your going to be hooked for life.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog I'm not chemist or physiologist etc, but I disagree with that. Use a car as analogy... MDMA releases more serotonin to the brain, making you "happier", which is equivalent to burning more fuel in a car; your brain goes into overdrive, but burns it's stores of power quickly. On the other hand, SSRI, or Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, do not release anything. They simply make the substances that are released naturally in the brain persist for longer, and, using the car analogy, can be compared to a fuel additive that improves octane rating - you're not supplying any more fuel, you're simply making use of what's there better; making things more efficient. To the three or so people who mentioned it...who the fuck "trips" on e? It's hardly psychedelic at all, you weirdos.

Actually your analogy is wrong

MDMA is twice as effective as an SSRI so therefore is it twice as good? no its just more potent and should be administered with smaller dosages.

Do not try to defend antidepressents!

Some depressed people take prozac and MAO inhibitors

basically this is similar to MDMA as it works double time on seratonin, prolonging its effects.

Anywyas im not encouraging everyone to take mdma. But im saying that essentially its just as bad as taking chronic dosages of antidepressents (probably much better if your not taking it chronicaly)

keep in mind as well that antidepressents also work on other NT receptors not just seratonin. This is the same with MDMA

First off, MDMA has several routes of action, the most important is that it is a SERT competitive inhibitor. (SERT = serotonin transporter) It's the exact same class of transporters affected with traditional SSRIs. So, its primary mode of action is exactly the same as an SSRI; it leaves serotonin in the synaptic cleft for a longer period of time. It does cause an increase in release as well, but that, along with its effects on other neurotransmitters (specifically dopamine) are not as important as its SERT-inhibiting effect.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit are you sure about that? clinical depression? is there realy such a thing? Do you know how easy it is to get medication for antidepressents and how often its wrongly supplied?

Yes, there really is such a thing, as diagnosed by DSM-IV. I'm not talking about having a bad day every once in a while, but chronic, sometimes debilitating neurological disease. Sure, it's easy to "fake" clinical depression, but treatments tend to be cheap, effective and side-effect free, so for most it's better to be treated and not have the condition than to not be treated and have the condition. I agree that too many people are diagnosed with clinical depression, but I guess I'd rather have too many non-depressed people on medication than depressed people not getting the help they need.

For too long people have had stigmas against mental illness, but hopefully that is starting to change. If someone has diabetes, we realize it is due (simplistically) to a lack of natural insulin, so we treat them accordingly and we don't ostracize them because of their condition or treatment. If someone is hypothyroid, we realize that there is a defect in the thyroid hormone system and we treat them accordingly, without batting an eye. But for too long if someone has had a chemical unbalance that causes their mood to be altered, we put it in a different category than the previous two conditions. Mental illness is no different from the previous two. It's a physiological condition that can be treated and should be. Yes, the symptoms are psychological, but that doesn't mean it is any less of a disease or the person suffering from them are any less of a person. (end rant)

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Going to your seratonin analogy there. What the drug will do is block the presynaptic reuptake and thus leave more seratonin floating around to be picked up by receptors. So what happens when all the receptors are full and there is still seratonin floating around? Well the body will naturally create new receptors so now you have 40 receptors instead of 30. Now when you try to get off the medication, there is more seratonin reuptake and you have less seratonin in the synaptic cleft. THus you become more depressed then you were in the first place

Upregulation of transporters is a slow process. It doesn't happen after acute exposure and even through chronic exposure is a slow process. Downregulation, in it's various forms, is much quicker as no new transmembrane proteins need to be assembled, just sequestered, destroyed or not produced. A neurotransmitter has its affect by receptor contacts per time on a postsynaptic membrane. The reason SSRIs and MDMA have their effect is because they increase the time portion of that equation. You have less receptors that can be activated, but you leave serotonin in the cleft for a longer period of time so you get more of an affect. Even with the SERT channels being blocked, biologic amines are still degraded and don't last indefinitely. It's not like we're going from serotonin being active from nanoseconds to days, we're going from nanoseconds to a few more nanoseconds. That is not enough time for upregulation of receptors, only for an increase in effect in postsynaptic neurons.

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Now this isnt what happens all the time. With small dosages and physiological testing antidepressents will help with severe seratonin defficiency but a high frequency of the time, the drugs are overperscribed and you hear the horror storries of people trying to get off them with their withdrawl symptons.

Sure, withdraw symptoms can occur, usually in two forms. First, prior to the medicine you did have a natural chemical imbalance and coming off the medication returns you to this natural imbalance, leading to a return to depression. SSRIs are not a "cure" they're a treatment. They don't fix your natural "machinery" they simply alter how it works so it functions closer to normal. As soon as you stop taking it you return to how you were before taking the medication.

Second, you could have not had a problem before hand, so taking an SSRI, or MDMA in continuous doses, led to a downregulation of serotonin receptors, so that once you're off of the drug, your naturally made serotonin doesn't have the same affect as the large amounts of serotonin you had in your synaptic clefts while on the drug. Thus, you have rebound depression. Luckily, and unlike those with true serotonin defects, your transporters will return to normal and the symptoms will subside over time.

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How do you tell the difference between normal and healthy? thats the big problem.. The solution is monitoring and low drug dosages. But the problem with that is that drugs take a long time to take effect.? Also i think with SSRI's downregulation does not occur since the drug effects pre synaptic response.

DSM-IV is the best way we have to differentiating healthy from non-healthy. However, since we're dealing with subjective responses, and since depression itself is subjective, we'll always have some doubts when diagnosing depression. Monitoring someone on an antidepressive medication is extremely important and is done by all good physicians but it is also a big responsibility of the patient as well. There is no magic formula when it comes to SSRIs or any antipsychotic for that matter as far as dosage goes. Physiologies and tolerances are different so each patient has to have a tailor made drug regimen.

Downregulation occurs whenever there is overstimulation of receptors, and SSRIs can very well lead to this. It makes no difference where the receptor is located.

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thats bullshit and you know it.. There is always side effects if your changing the body's natural chemistry developed from infancy. The trick to antidepressents or any drug is being able to get off them safley without side effects. and this rarley happens. Why do you think the pharmecutical companies make so much money? Because they know you'll be hooked for life, increase dosage over time and eventually permanently kill your sex drive!

No, the "trick" to antidepressants or any other drug is to use them to alleviate initial symptoms with as little side effect as possible. Severely depressed people aren't concerned with the possible effects of coming off a medication, they're worried about ending their daily fight with depression using a medication that causes as few ill-effects as possible. Going back to my first diatribe, a Type I diabetic isn't concerned with the withdraw effects of stopping insulin treatment, merely that the insulin works to control their diabetes. Someone with hypothyroid isn't concerned with what will happen when they stop taking synthroid, merely that their symptoms are controlled. In the same light, a clinically depressed patient only cares that their depression is relieved. Using your logic, I guess you're going to argue that the makers of artificial insulin or thyroid hormone are equally ruthless since their users are also "hooked for life?"

Sure, there probably will be some negative side effects, with a decrease in libido being one. However, you as a patient have to ask yourself is a decrease in sex drive worth the alleviation of chronic depression? It's up to the patient to decide. I've never seen someone "forced" to take an antidepressive.

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And again, drugs are drugs. MDMA could be more useful for a person then prozac, it all depends on their biochemistry and dosage. IF you want ot alleiviate the depression faster you could chose mdma since it works on 2 presynaptic mechanisms instead of 1.

I'll agree that everyone is different and every drug behaves differently, but I won't agree that just because MDMA has multiple effects it is "better" than traditional SSRIs at treating depression.

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exactly, so what are we arguing about again lol.. oh yeah.. psychotherapy 1st then pharmaceuticals 2nd. Or your going to be hooked for life.

I'll also agree there. Non-drug treatments (social, behavioral, cognitive) should always be tried first, however when a condition is truly chemical in nature, no amount of psychotherapy with work.

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Originally posted by Mattsanity anyone who gets depressed after ecstasy use is just straight pussy and should get his balls cut off. first of all, people take ecstasy because it gets them happy but when the effects wear out and you wake up the next day feeling absolutely shit and dont put any effort in being happy while sober KNOWing you're gonna have your next pill after some time, then they should just quit taking E and being some holy religious person, simple as that. smart E users know that their willpower will have to get them through the soberish times but they know that E will relieve their tensions again. so basically, what I'm saying is that E shouldnt be taken and reminisced on while you're on the effect. it should also give you an enlightening thought process while you're sober. "I'm sober and Im struggling right now but I know that through my willpower, I will be able to pull through this and a nice dose of stackers will be upon my grasp in a short while." now that's the right mentality

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Originally posted by Direct She indeed is a goddess. I would cut her body in half and hang her upper half in the shower and take her lower and fuck it on my bed.

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