quote:

Originally posted by Krypton What happens to Iraq? A Shiite Islamist regime will take power and solidify ties to Iran, that's what's going to happen. Now do you think the Americans are going to allow such a thing a to happen? No, which is why they are so invested in propping up this corrupt puppet regime which will fall if the occupation were to end.

that still doesn't support your argument that the war in iraq is anything like taking land from native americans. we are staying to protect a government, not take land. that's what your argument says.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Actually, $1.3 billion to be exact...Read...http://vienna.usembassy.gov/en/down...df/iraq_emb.pdf >>>> In his FY2006 budget request, President Bush did not include funds for construction of the U.S. Mission in Iraq.1 A week after submitting his FY2006 budget to Congress, the President sent Congress an FY2005 emergency supplemental funding request. Included in the supplemental is more than $1.3 billion for the embassy in Iraq: $690 million for logistical and security costs for the embassy in Baghdad and $658 million for construction of the new embassy compound there. Included in the latter are the costs of housing, a power plant, enhanced security, and expedited (24-month) construction.

ok, so what? how does that support your argument? all this means is that providing security in iraq and building compounds in iraq are very expensive tasks.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The Iraqi's don't even have clean water, 24 hour electricity, and being the #2 oil reserve, suffer from fuel shortages regularly. Wasn't it Mr. Rumfeld who said Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the occupation? Iraq, which was on the verge of being a failed state during Saddam's post-1991 reign, now is a full-fledged failed state...

again, how does that support your original argument that iraq is somehow like taking land from the natives? that's irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Oh, the joys of colonialism. This is my point. Colonialism might have worked in obliterating the natives of North America, but it will not work today. I guess the leadership have yet to learn this....

if colonialism worked in the past (although Leb is right that what we did to the natives wasn't colonialism), how could we learn the lesson from that experience that it wouldn't work in the future?

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-02-2008 at 00:48

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium

Great read magnetonium. I agree, the displaced and disenfranchised peoples certainly do need assistance, but making excuses and blaming everything on the white man really isn't helping anybody.

We are experiencing some quite extreme examples of intervention here in australia, such as the banning of alcohol in certain regions, as well as replacing cash payments (which are spent on alcohol) with food vouchers. There are also other limitations on alcohol and we've sent in the police to maintain order.

Whilst I obviously can't appreciate the hardship faced by conquered peoples, im not about to feel guilty about the actions of others, nor lament what was a common practice of colonialism hundreds of years ago, and led to the creation of two of the world's greatest (imo) democracies - australia and canada.

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Colonialism is unjust!!!!!! It was to the native Americans. It is in the Iraq. Of course it is not EXACTLY the same as it was, with settlers and everything. But the motives are the same. To plunder the land...That is all...

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Colonialism is unjust!!!!!! It was to the native Americans. It is the Middle East. Of course it is not EXACTLY the same as it was, with settlers and everything. But the motives are the same. To plunder the land...That is all...

many things in life are unjust, but that doesn't make them the same. i won't argue that the 'plunder the land' argument is totally of mark, however, understand the distinction that native americans forever lost control of the entire continent of north america while iraqis may be displaced from controlling their land for a decade at most. And that is only if you assume your 'puppet' argument is correct, and that iraqis really don't control their land (which i clearly don't agree with).

quote:

Originally posted by colonelcrisp Great rebuttal....... I work hard for a living, and i pay my taxes. I fail to see any benefit for me or for the native population derived from the millions of dollars wasted on the band councils each year? North american Indians are the only conquered people in history that are still receiving compensation hundereds of years after their land was taken. Why the hell are we still paying for this? I don't see the american gov sending out reparation checks every month to every black family in america for enslaving their great grandfathers.... the best thing that could possibly happen for native americans (the canadian ones at least) is to cut them off their freebies and hand outs and their tax exempt status. otherwise we are just funding their own deliquancy and contributing to the sluminess of the reserves.... its hard to take pride in things that are given to you without having earned it.

Like your beloved fucking country you cun-t. Try to keep your fucking comments on topic next you fucking degenrate prick.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

in news just to hand:

texas runs out of grumpy pills for the second time in as many weeks!

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Great read magnetonium. I agree, the displaced and disenfranchised peoples certainly do need assistance, but making excuses and blaming everything on the white man really isn't helping anybody.

I didn't say a word about the "white man." It was more like the Catholic Church and the Canadian goverment responsible for this attrocity and keeping it hush hush. PKC, being a "white man," are you the Catholic Church or the Canadian Goverment?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Whilst I obviously can't appreciate the hardship faced by conquered peoples, im not about to feel guilty about the actions of others, nor lament what was a common practice of colonialism hundreds of years ago, and led to the creation of two of the world's greatest (imo) democracies - australia and canada.

I know, that's a little fucking stupid... feeling guilty for something you never participated in. And this attrocity didn't take place "hundreds of years ago."

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I didn't say a word about the "white man." It was more like the Catholic Church and the Canadian goverment responsible for this attrocity and keeping it hush hush. PKC, being a "white man," are you the Catholic Church or the Canadian Goverment?

but i wasn't talking to you, i was talking about mag's experience in canada, and my experience in australia.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I know, that's a little fucking stupid... feeling guilty for something you never participated in. And this attrocity didn't take place "hundreds of years ago."

well, this conversation has certainly moved beyond your initial video, and as someone else has already stated, your video was more related to individual abuses rather than a systemic policy by the canadian government (forgive me if im wrong, i havent watched it).

but in any case, i was talking about displaced persons due to colonial invasion, not your example specifically.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN texas runs out of grumpy pills for the second time in as many weeks!

its in the air mate

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I have a Canadian flag hoisted above my house, not even a Russian flag - I keep in my room.[/COLOR]

i wouldn't have expected that, although it's nice to hear.

maybe the natives of canada should start building casinos like the natives in the US. every reserve has a friggin casino on it now. so, in addition to alcohol abuse, the natives who don't run the casinos are addicted to gambling.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Haven't you been disillusioned with the concept of nation states yet?

what's your alternative solution?

Nations are not brought about so people can feel patriotic and as part of a group. Stripped down to its barest purpose, a nation is just an area with an identifiable boundary where similar people living within those boundaries have agreed to a common set of rules for the people to follow. Even in a world without identifiable political boundaries groups of people live by rules that are agreed amongst the general population: social norms. People who violate those social norms are subject to sanction by society much the same. Nation states are just a formal way of agreeing upon those rules and officially sanctioning those who disobey those rules that society has agreed are important to follow.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-02-2008 at 05:21

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Like your beloved fucking country you cun-t. Try to keep your fucking comments on topic next you fucking degenrate prick.

...and just because you watch one documentary doesn't make you an expert either there Z.

Any Canadian knows what Magnetonium has spelt out is unfortunately the truth.
Our Canadian government has been kowtowing to the Natives for DECADES - throwing money at them hoping they'd finally shut up only to find them again on the doorstep after they've (literally) pissed the TAXPAYERS money away.

I'm all for apologizing to a point but if we're going to play the victim game I'm only going to listen to it the first time round, after DECADES of that, people tend to get pissed off...

There are a few reserves that actually do well, but they're very few.

I've mulled over getting my Metis status card for years because I seriously didn't want anything to do with that stereotypical rabble. However I have learned that there are Natives out there that do want to make a difference and that's something I have hope for even if I have to join to try and outnumber the ID-10-Ts...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."