quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN "most" people? look at the throngs of people!!

Yes most people, there are more here present then official story believers and just about anywhere else I look. Find some real numbers supporting your claims.

I do not expect anything but another BS post from you because well...you are a troll.

quote:

Originally posted by culorut Yes most people, there are more here present then official story believers and just about anywhere else I look. Find some real numbers supporting your claims. I do not expect anything but another BS post from you because well...you are a troll.

fucking hell. totally delusional. let me guess, your "real numbers" are an internet voting poll on tranceaddict, where not only is the question ambiguous, but the poll is final so you cant change your vote if you change your mind.

the majority of people think youre idiots. which is why you don't have a new investigation or any political clout whatsoever. hell, newspapers and magazines have articles laughing at you and trying to explain your stupidity.

but, you tell me when your "majority" has got its act together to begin a new investigation.

fucking hell man, there's one thing to believe in the truth, and another to actually think your movement has a wide following. i mean, there's a reason why your rallies are attended by so few people champ.

but hey, youre still here making us laugh so its not all bad.

___________________

The 9/11 Truth movement is really distinguished by a kind of defiant unfamiliarity with the actual character of America's ruling class. In 9/11 lore the people who staff the White House, the security agencies, the Pentagon and groups like PNAC and the Council of Foreign Relations are imagined to be a monolithic, united class of dastardly, swashbuckling risk-takers with permanent hard-ons for Bourne Supremacy-style "false flag" and "black bag" operations, instead of the mundanely greedy, risk-averse, backstabbing, lawn-tending, half-clever suburban golfers they are in real life. It completely misunderstands the nature of American government -- fails to see that the old maxim about "the business of America is business" is absolutely true, that the federal government in this country is really just a lo-rent time-share property seasonally occupied by this or that clan of financial interests, each of which takes its 4-year turn at the helm tinkering with the tax laws and regulatory code and the rates at the Fed in the way it thinks will best keep the money train rolling.

The people who really run America don't send the likes of George Bush and Dick Cheney to the White House to cook up boat-rocking, maniacal world-domination plans and commit massive criminal conspiracies on live national television; they send them there to repeal PUCHA and dole out funds for the F-22 and pass energy bills with $14 billion tax breaks and slash fuel efficiency standards and do all the other shit that never makes the papers but keeps Wall Street and the country's corporate boardrooms happy. You don't elect politicians to commit crimes; you elect politicians to make your crimes legal. That is the whole purpose of the racket of government. Another other use of it would be a terrible investment, and the financial class in this country didn't get to where it is by betting on the ability of a president whose lips move when he reads to blow up two Manhattan skyscrapers in broad daylight without getting caught.

But according to 9/11 Truth lore, the financial patrons of democratic government were game for exactly that sort of gamble. According to the movement, the Powers That Be in the year 2000 spent $200 million electing George Bush and Dick Cheney because they were insufficiently impressed with the docility of the American population. What was needed, apparently, was a mass distraction, a gruesome mass murder that would whip the American population into a war frenzy. The same people who had managed in the 2000 election to sell billionaire petro-royalist George Bush as an ordinary down-to-earth ranch hand apparently so completely lacked confidence in their own propaganda skills that they resorted to ordering a mass murder on American soil as a way of cajoling America to go to war against a second-rate tyrant like Saddam Hussein. As if getting America to support going to war even against innocent countries had ever been hard before!

The truly sad thing about the 9/11 Truth movement is that it's based upon the wildly erroneous proposition that our leaders would ever be frightened enough of public opinion to feel the need to pull off this kind of stunt before acting in a place like Afghanistan or Iraq. At its heart, 9/11 Truth is a conceit, a narcissistic pipe dream for a dingbat, sheeplike population that is pleased to imagine itself dangerous and ungovernable. Rather than admit to their own powerlessness and irrelevance, or admit that they've spent the last fifty years or so electing leaders who openly handed their tax money to business cronies and golfed in Scotland while middle America's jobs were being sent overseas, the adherents to 9/11 Truth instead flatter themselves with fantasies about a ruling class obsessed with keeping the terrible truth from the watchful, exacting eye of The People.

Whereas the real conspiracy of power in America is right out in the open and always has been, only nobody cares, so long as Fear Factor and Baseball Tonight come on a the right times. A conspiracy like the one described by 9/11 Truth would only be necessary in a country where the people are a threat to actually govern themselves effectively.

But none of that even matters nearly as much as what 9/11 Truth says about the mental state of the population. The whole narrative of the movement is so completely and utterly retarded, it boggles the mind. It's like something cooked up by a bunch of teenagers raised on texting, TV and Sports Illustrated who just saw V For Vendetta for the first time and decided to write a Penguin History of the World on the strength of it. A genius on the order of a Mozart or a Shakespeare would be hard-pressed to dream up the awesome comedy that is the alleged plot from the point of view of the plotters.

-lost link, sorry.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN -lost link, sorry.

wow....until that point i was going to comment at how amazingly accurate that portrayal is coming from an aussie. the only inaccuracy is the wealth of bush. he is not even close to a billionaire.

Jesus Christ.

Here's the way I look at it - American government allows suspected terrorists to roam and train. Then it fails to protect the people from the attack. Then instead of taking the blame for the failure to use its defenses to protect citizens and having 0% success ratio at intercepting any of the alleged terrorists, it decides to blame someone else. Blame and attack countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, resulting in hundreds of thousands of more innocent people dying for nothing other than money, profits, power and political motivations. Among other pieces.

When you put the picture together, all the pieces, its easy to see that 9/11 attacks and their aftermath as a great benefit for specific group of people to expand their political agenda. The military and energy/oil companies who have lobbied for a long time and who were entangled with some American politicians had made their big bucks, and still do.

As I said before, its fun mocking conspiracy theorists and blaming them for the problems, shifting the focus of the situation. Looking at 9/11 in a broad perspective and you dont need to look for evidence that government organized the attacks on its own people. We all know who benefited from all this. As Roosevelt said it once, there are no accidents in politics.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium as a great benefit for specific group of people to expand their political agenda.

what agenda is that? the agenda to give both houses to the democrats, and in all likelihood the white house as well? they're so cunning these nefarious elite types!

repeated for emphasis

quote:

The truly sad thing about the 9/11 Truth movement is that it's based upon the wildly erroneous proposition that our leaders would ever be frightened enough of public opinion to feel the need to pull off this kind of stunt before acting in a place like Afghanistan or Iraq. At its heart, 9/11 Truth is a conceit, a narcissistic pipe dream for a dingbat, sheeplike population that is pleased to imagine itself dangerous and ungovernable. Rather than admit to their own powerlessness and irrelevance, or admit that they've spent the last fifty years or so electing leaders who openly handed their tax money to business cronies and golfed in Scotland while middle America's jobs were being sent overseas, the adherents to 9/11 Truth instead flatter themselves with fantasies about a ruling class obsessed with keeping the terrible truth from the watchful, exacting eye of The People.

completely right.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN repeated for emphasis

People dont elect leaders, in USA at least. Corporations select their representatives and make average people choose from their hand-picked list. And then they sway people to support one or the other. There are no good candidates. People get fooled every time, politicians keep lying and keep failing on fullfilling all their promises.

What you said doesnt make sense. Its not the people's fault - we dont make decisions. Lobbyists and politicians do. And people are coerced into choosing between "the choice the corporations really want" versus "an OK choice, not the best but in the right direction" for them. Corporations and big business win every time because somebody's boy makes it to the office and promotes his financiers, paying them back sort of thing. People dont elect politicians, because politicians need money to win elections (i.e. campaigns, money, political support), and what does the average citizen mean to the politician?

Often enough politicians and their backers pass laws and treaties that majority of the population opposes or either didnt concent to. Like GMO's.

We can go on forever talking about the bullshit of the government. The crisis thats sweeping United States right now in not the people's fault. Its the government's fault.

We oppose the government not because of being "dangerous and ungovernable", but because we are "powerless and irrelevant" to whats going on. We The People? my ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium People dont elect leaders, in USA at least. Corporations select their representatives and make average people choose from their hand-picked list. And then they sway people to support one or the other. There are no good candidates. People get fooled every time, politicians keep lying and keep failing on fullfilling all their promises. What you said doesnt make sense. Its not the people's fault - we dont make decisions. Lobbyists and politicians do. And people are coerced into choosing between "the choice the corporations really want" versus "an OK choice, not the best but in the right direction" for them. Corporations and big business win every time because somebody's boy makes it to the office and promotes his financiers, paying them back sort of thing. People dont elect politicians, because politicians need money to win elections (i.e. campaigns, money, political support), and what does the average citizen mean to the politician? Often enough politicians and their backers pass laws and treaties that majority of the population opposes or either didnt concent to. Like GMO's. We can go on forever talking about the bullshit of the government. The crisis thats sweeping United States right now in not the people's fault. Its the government's fault. We oppose the government not because of being "dangerous and ungovernable", but because we are "powerless and irrelevant" to whats going on. We The People? my ass.

So, what youre saying is that after the corporations ensured 2 republican presidential election victories, and after bush pushed the US into war which benefitted these shadowy corporate elites youre always banging on about, they then decided they had had enough of that and then got the democrats to win back both houses, despite bush doing exactly what was asked of him by invading the middle east?

Yeah, that makes sense!

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN So, what youre saying is that after the corporations ensured 2 republican presidential election victories, and after bush pushed the US into war which benefitted these shadowy corporate elites youre always banging on about, they then decided they had had enough of that and then got the democrats to win back both houses, despite bush doing exactly what was asked of him by invading the middle east? Yeah, that makes sense!

Big friggin deal that they lose the both houses - have the democrats reversed the mistakes that the republicans did? Not at all! Both parties are the same dam party with the same dam platform, just they say differently on the camera. Clinton was a democrat but he still bombed the hell out of foreign countries. Democrats have been playing along the same Republican tune all past 8 years.

Same with politicians coming to power - they are pretty much the same. Watch the US elections - hardly anything's going to change. USA's foreign policy will hardly change at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Big friggin deal that they lose the both houses - have the democrats reversed the mistakes that the republicans did? Not at all! Both parties are the same dam party with the same dam platform, just they say differently on the camera. Clinton was a democrat but he still bombed the hell out of foreign countries. Democrats have been playing along the same Republican tune all past 8 years. Same with politicians coming to power - they are pretty much the same. Watch the US elections - hardly anything's going to change. USA's foreign policy will hardly change at all.

i love when non-americans have the insight in american politics. for some reason, which i don't fully understand, many canadians are highly misinformed about how our government works.


candidates are not hand picked by corporations. candidates rise from local political machines (mostly at the state level) that are comprised of other politicians. The local leaders of the parties make assessments of an individuals chance of winning an election, and the decision of which individuals will run are generally based on that evaluation. any money that flows normally comes after that decision has already been made.

Corporations (which have a limited ability to contribute to a candidate) and rich individuals contribute to candidates and the parties so the candidate can get his/her name out in the public. in america, it's all about publicity since we don't have public financing (and free access to media) for politicians like many other western countries. Thus, contributions are the unfortunate lifeline to a political campaign.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 i love when non-americans have the insight in american politics. for some reason, which i don't fully understand, many canadians are highly misinformed about how our government works. candidates are not hand picked by corporations. candidates rise from local political machines (mostly at the state level) that are comprised of other politicians. The local leaders of the parties make assessments of an individuals chance of winning an election, and the decision of which individuals will run are generally based on that evaluation. any money that flows normally comes after that decision has already been made. Corporations (which have a limited ability to contribute to a candidate) and rich individuals contribute to candidates and the parties so the candidate can get his/her name out in the public. in america, it's all about publicity since we don't have public financing (and free access to media) for politicians like many other western countries. Thus, contributions are the unfortunate lifeline to a political campaign.

You dont get the point - of course candidates arent born, groomed, and trained by corporations. They begin with their first political aspirations, but by the time they rise to the high ranks they have lost their political independence. You're not gonna win presidential elections on your own. You need Deep Pockets to support your ass. And corporations dont do it for free or because they're bored ...