Why don't all stores have biodegradeable plastic bags like they do at the Body Shop, and charge a nickel for them like we do at No Frills?

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Short time TA, Long time Guver, Good time giver.

the paper vs. plastic bag debate is FAR more complex than is being discussed here.

you need to evaluate the aggregate cost of producing the product from the very beginning. this includes harvesting/processing the raw materials, labour used, energy used, transport costs, etc. etc. etc. That analysis alone is probably ridiculous in scope.

you also need to consider the life cycle of the product. is it used once, twice? for a day, a year? is it reusable? recyclable? or is it just waste at the end? what happens to that waste? does it just 'harmlessly' occupy space (which is finite) or does it degrade and contaminate ecosystems, which then must be treated (and that spinoff cost has to factor into the overall analysis too)

you need to look at all costs ($$$, energy used, etc.) to dispose of or recycle the products. Just becuase two things are recyclable doesn't mean it costs the same, or uses the same energy, to do so.

also factor in that not all areas possess identical facilities to even recycle or dispose of plastic and paper and now your analysis changes depending upon what area you're looking at!

even with all that, I'm sure that I'm just skimming the surface of how complex the analysis of "what's better, paper or plastic" truly is...and that's assuming that those who are capable of this can even agree on the parameters of analysis in the first place.

ignoring ALL costs to produce, use, and dispose of or recycle a product is extremely short-sighted and is why most people favour paper bags. They think 'paper is recyclable...therefore paper must be better". it's far from that simple and some studies claim that the opposite is true...that when examining a wider range of factors, plastic may actually be "better".

'efficiency' is another short-sighted goal. of course improving efficiency is good...but efficiency doesn't address overall consumption. There's a reason that the phrase is "reduce, reuse, recycle" IN THAT ORDER.

Reducing overally consumption should be the ultimate goal...from start to finish. are we really "ahead" if cars become twice as efficient in 10 years, but there are 5 times as many of them on the road by that time? it's better than having no improvement in efficiency, but overall fuel consumption is still WAY up, isn't it! This is the very problem occuring in Asia with the rise of the middle class. FAR more people have cars today than before...so you can make all the "efficiency" improvements you want...it's not addressing the incredible rise in consumption, just mitigating it.

*sigh*

so the gov't, school boards, LCBO, etc. etc. When they implement these policies...I really wonder HOW CLOSE of a look are they taking at the overall issue or is it a knee jerk reaction based upon a flawed or incomplete analysis?

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT highly debateable.

this is now the post of the thread lol!

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"The best car-related innovation we have is not to improve the car, but eliminate the need to drive it everywhere we go.” -Alex Steffen

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 you confuse bottled water with water bottles. Water bottles (hard plastic) is being banned because of BPA. Soft plastic bottles are being done away with because of "recycling concerns"

once again, get your facts right. Baby bottles are being banned, but you can still buy water bottles (nalgenes) with BPA. Sellers are voluntarily taking them off the market, but they are not going to be banned.

Also, your remark on schools flushing their water systems is not correct. They do not necessarily do that because of lead, but other contaminants. For most municipal water systems, if the water pressure flowing through the pipes was not high enough, contaminants would actually flow in, rather than be pushed out. Sometimes you just cannot avoid this. Every engineering project has limitations, which we need to work around. Tap water is quite safe, and I dare you to prove otherwise with facts, and studies rather than your own word.

The only reason I continue to answer your crazy pill inspired posts is to make sure I am a dissenting voice to your rants.

Im going to be honest... I didnt go through this whole thread. I will tomorrow when Im less tired. But I had to put my thoughts here... I disagree with everything Jayx1 has said

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 -Cigarette displays in stores banned....i saw cig billboards when i was a kid and i dont smoke! Also, this is exactly how the liquor stores used to operate until the 60s and people still bought a lot of booze didnt they?

But a lot of kids do smoke! This isnt going to affect smokers, its only going to help decrease the number of new smokers and help quiters. Yes it hurts some retailers, but seriously its for the better.

quote:

-Smoking in cars with kids (my parents did this and i grew up fine!)

STFU! Seriously! this pisses me off. Second hand smoke is horrible for everyone especially young kids. So many kids have asmtha because of their parents. A law that is protecting children you cant argue that one.

quote:

-Plastic bags at the liquor store. I guess theyd rather kill a tonne of trees with paper rather than use recyclable plastic bags. FYI paper bags get an average of 1 use while plastic bags get reused 2 to four times.

I think its great the the gov't is trying to encourage us to bring our own bags. I keep a cloth bag in my purse. I think everyone should...
And the paper bags cant really be used for carrying, youve seen them, they are only really meant to help protect bottles. I dont think they will use many more than they already do.

quote:

Strongly being considered (Which with Mcguinty means it will definately happen): - cell phones in cars. Mcguinty said he wasnt interested in this type of ban a few months ago. Where have i heard that before? Oh yes he said the same thing about smoking in cars and police airplanes. Most Toronto drivers suck regardless of whether or not they are on a phone. In fact most of the douchbags i pass who are doing 80 in the left lane are by themselves and spaced out in their own little world. - Electronic devices - This must be a world first. Not only are they going to ban blackberrys, MP3 players, and i wouldnt be surprised if radios and CD players are in there. But they are going to ban devices NOT EVEN INVENTED YET Only Mcguinty and his commie liberals could think of that one!!! I cant wait for the flood of douche bags that park on the side of highways to take a call which is probably 1000 times more dangerous than talking while driving.

Thank god! Too many accidents. Too many reckless driving. No phone call is that important! Keep your eyes and mind on the road. Driving is serious business.

quote:

- plastic bags in all retail stores. Again, cant wait for the mess of paper bags that tear and shred before you even make it to the car. Cant wait for the chemically treated paper bags to get thrown out instead of resued. Makes for great showboating politics but not very practical.

Read my comment above about bags. Plus maybe you should do some research about our land fills and plastic bags.... its a serious problem

quote:

- Plastic water bottles. Many school boards are already banning them (after banning pop) and now the province might do the same. I guess they want us to drink from the lead coated pipes in schools and parks. If i were in the business id have a few solutions.

Yay for Brita! I honestly dont know much about this one.. let me read up...

quote:

Good old canada. We have a lot of real problems such as lost jobs, genuinely poor people, and health care but the government is too busy micromanaging adults. Who voted for the Liberals? Wasnt me!

I voted for liberals... not a fan of a lot of their actions to be honest... but everything listed here is GREAT!

The law regarding kids in the car and smoking...

This is common friggen sense!!!

The fact that we would even have to enforce it because some people are so friggen daft to begin with, is maddening.

It's too bad that there are some people out there that are just too dumb and selfish to see beyond their own satisfactions.

I hope this law goes through, and I absolutely hope it gets enforced. All the people in a rage about it should shove it up their arse. If you weren't such a moron to begin with, you wouldn't have something to be mad about.

The Loblaws Superstore in Milton doesn't even offer plastic bags. They say its because they are being environmentally friendly....which is absolute BS. If they were trying to be environmentally friendly and not just trying to sell their 0.99 cloth bags then they wouldn't have plastic bags all over the place to put your veggies and fruit in. If they really cared then they would just give me as many cloth bags as I need.

Although I don't agree often with Jay I think many people here are missing his main point on most of the issues he brings up. The different levels of government are treating adults (the ones that elect them) like children who cannot make decisions for themselves. I don't think babysitter is an elected position at any level of government.

I can't wait till the government starts dictating how many kilometers you can drive a day or have an automatic lights out policy after 8 pm.

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Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Although I don't agree often with Jay I think many people here are missing his main point on most of the issues he brings up. The different levels of government are treating adults (the ones that elect them) like children who cannot make decisions for themselves. I don't think babysitter is an elected position at any level of government.

NO theyre treating STUPID adults who cant make proper desicions in life that in turn affect others negatively.. by forcing them to do what best for the majority

quote:

Originally posted by jonnystel NO theyre treating STUPID adults who cant make proper desicions in life that in turn affect others negatively.. by forcing them to do what best for the majority

agreed


Even if these laws are 'babying' people, so what?

These laws benefit our enviroment, our lives, our children, our society.....

Sometimes even adults need a little push.

quote:

Originally posted by jonnystel NO theyre treating STUPID adults who cant make proper desicions in life that in turn affect others negatively.. by forcing them to do what best for the majority

every human makes wrong decisions in life....its part of being human. The government cannot stop people from making wrong choices.

Every time something bad happens there is some group of people who say BAN IT. The government, in all its wisdom , make the decision to not piss that small group off and they BAN IT.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

quote:

Originally posted by Intangible agreed Even if these laws are 'babying' people, so what? These laws benefit our enviroment, our lives, our children, our society..... Sometimes even adults need a little push.

Would you be so quick to agree if the government decided it wasn't safe for people to be outside after 8:00 p.m. so they banned people from being outside their residence after 8:00 p.m.?

The government needs to worry about running the country and not running the lives of every individual.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Would you be so quick to agree if the government decided it wasn't safe for people to be outside after 8:00 p.m. so they banned people from being outside their residence after 8:00 p.m.? The government needs to worry about running the country and not running the lives of every individual.

if it really wasn't safe... maybe due to bombing or something

I mean it has to be logical and beneficial to the majority, and all these new bans are.


And uhhhhh

These laws are about running the PROVINCE

the environment is very important and our economy and standard of living depend on it
And the individual people make up the province. The children our the future for this province. And peoples idiot actions (texting while driving) are killing innocent people, clearly not everyone is smart enough to make their own decisions.