quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov But a pretty realistic one. For that matter, what happens when they elect a Shia Iran-sympathizer? The USSR dissolved and democracy was painful at the start so they elected a strongman in Putin... what happens if Iraq looks for the next Saddam? You already hear some of the comments in interviews with Iraqis - "life was bad under Saddam, but at least you could afford bread and there wasn't shooting in the streets."

Put in power by the US, and the Shi'ite rebelion that could have overthrown him crushed with US support. The US never gave a flying fuck about promoting democracy abroad, and the current administration isn't exactly promoting it at home so sure as fuck won't promote it abroad. You guys are hilarious.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Put in power by the US, and the Shi'ite rebelion that could have overthrown him crushed with US support. The US never gave a flying fuck about promoting democracy abroad, and the current administration isn't exactly promoting it at home so sure as fuck won't promote it abroad. You guys are hilarious.

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. I fully realize that Iraq was never about democracy... after all, democracy was only used as a pretext once we realized someone forgot to bring the WMD to the party.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov But a pretty realistic one. For that matter, what happens when they elect a Shia Iran-sympathizer? The USSR dissolved and democracy was painful at the start so they elected a strongman in Putin... what happens if Iraq looks for the next Saddam? You already hear some of the comments in interviews with Iraqis - "life was bad under Saddam, but at least you could afford bread and there wasn't shooting in the streets."

One could only hope they're not that stupid.
All they have to do is look to their cousins in Gaza and the Hamas government to see where that kind of future lies...

Knowing how Hamas operates, all the States would have to do is wait for a good enough excuse to walk right back in...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r One could only hope they're not that stupid.

wait how is that stupid? Iraqi's are free and they are allowd to choose whoever the fuck they want as their government,if they choose a Shia majority the US has to respect that choice by all means.

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer wait how is that stupid? Iraqi's are free and they are allowd to choose whoever the fuck they want as their government,if they choose a Shia majority the US has to respect that choice by all means.

Has Iran declared the US Army Rangers a terrorist group yet?

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer wait how is that stupid? Iraqi's are free and they are allowd to choose whoever the fuck they want as their government,if they choose a Shia majority the US has to respect that choice by all means.

You must have stopped reading my post past the first line.
Here, let me show you it.

quote:

All they have to do is look to their cousins in Gaza and the Hamas government to see where that kind of future lies...

It helps when you don't take individual lines out of context...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r You must have stopped reading my post past the first line. Here, let me show you it. It helps when you don't take individual lines out of context...

Really, all that shows is that the west doesn't respect who the Palestinians vote for. No wonder they feel so helpless.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Has Iran declared the US Army Rangers a terrorist group yet?

No but they did lable CIA as a terrorist organization.

___________________
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http://soundcloud.com/mystic-mind

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quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Don't paint everyone with the same brush. I fully realize that Iraq was never about democracy... after all, democracy was only used as a pretext once we realized someone forgot to bring the WMD to the party.

Alright, cool. Then what is it about and how do you think Obama differs from the NeoCons? And what is your take on his role in a broader institutional framework? Is the other side of the coin really that appealing?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Alright, cool. Then what is it about and how do you think Obama differs from the NeoCons? And what is your take on his role in a broader institutional framework? Is the other side of the coin really that appealing?

It is to me just because I don't think the system is broken. I think that we've seen a tremendous distortion of the institutions that make up the system since 1980 when Reagan took office. Sure, government wasn't perfect before that either, but it worked and provided for the concerns that most Americans entrusted it with. A lot of people like to compare Obama to John F. Kennedy because he can make a good speech. But I think there's more depth to comparing Obama to John's brother Robert. RFK deeply believed that politics was about affecting change in people's lives for the better. As he once said, "It is not enough to understand, or to see clearly. The future will be shaped in the arena of human activity, by those willing to commit their minds and their bodies to the task." The task is to make America a better place, and it's one that I think Obama will work toward.

If you asked George W. Bush or John McCain what the role of the Presidency is, I imagine they'd say it is to run the country. Be an executive. If you asked Barack Obama, I believe he'd say it is to serve the people. And it is that desire to change the perspective of government from one of steering the ship to serving that makes him so appealing to me. Now, I don't know if he'll be able to accomplish this with the Congress he's been given. And I don't know if we'll see any of the wide-sweeping changes that he aims to make. But for me the key is that he aims to make them. He wants to. Whether he is able or not, he recognizes that government has strayed from its path and he wants to correct it. He wants to utilize the Presidency to serve the people. Successful or not, that's something I'm excited to get behind.

A lot has also been made of his work experience, etc. He hasn't been a politician for long, but people suddenly talk as if that's a bad thing. The majority of Americans hate politicians, but they want their President to be a career one. Obama has had a short political career, but an active one. Prior to that he was editor of the Harvard Law Review, showing that he had the capacity to wrestle with some of the greatest legal challenges of our time. He was a constitutional law professor, showing that he has the ability to carefully weigh considerations such as Supreme Court appointments. But more importantly, prior to his entrance into politics in 1997, he was a community organizer and social worker.

A social worker running for President. What a novel idea - take someone who has walked the streets and recognizes the problems that face real Americans in trouble, and have that person make the decisions that affect real people. He registered 150,000 black voters that had not yet registered to vote, created a job training center on the South Side of Chicago as well as a college preparation center, and sat on the board of a number of grant-writing foundations for community projects in and around Chicago. It's not glamorous stuff, but it's made a difference.

One of his law professor colleagues tried to talk Obama out of running for the US Senate in 2003, and Obama's reply was simply "I think I can make a difference." Now that is change I can believe in.

"Progress is a nice word. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." -- Robert F. Kennedy

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Thanks for the prompt and straight forward response. First of all, I completely disagree that the institutions worked for most Americans at any point in American history... but that's another topic all together. Yes, he's intelligent enough to actually do the job... but he's also intelligent and "street smart" enough to make the right political connections. He has a record of zero action, that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence for one; what social work would that be exactly? There tons of high school and college aged kids who do that stuff purely for building a resume, so that doesn't really mean a whole lot to be honest. You state is as if it's some type of lifetime commitment or something, which certainly isn't the case. It's a nice feature on paper. His cabinet is comprised of the same wall street power brokers as every other administration. How is that change? Being a good public speaker is a political asset, but it doesn't translate in to action or service.

EDIT: BTW, you missed the very first question; the one I'm more curious about.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Jul-24-2008 at 15:08