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Originally posted by St_Andrew Obviously Obama has more charisma (if you don't agree with that one, I'm just gonna give up this debate)

agree.

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(and no, you don't learn cultures by living at an army base abroad).

using a similar standard to yours, Obama only lived "abroad" as a child.

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When it comes to knowledge, I think they are pretty much equal, with Obama having the lead, but that doesn't matter that much since they will have advisers helping them anyway.

do you think wisdom is more important or knowledge. and i'd argue that, again, your assuption of Obama's knowledge is a perception and little else.

the beauty of the office of the president of the United States is that it's set up for one man, someone who is, yes, advised by council, to lead with his judgement and his alone. it's set up in a way that makes him and him alone responsible for the decision making.

what i'm saying is that it does matter what defines the man as a sound judge of character. so far, Obama hasn't proven that to the electorate substantively and the polls reflect that.

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Anyway, I think the reason why so many still votes McCain is that they don't value those aspects. They rather want a tough guy from the military who can stop gays from marrying...

maybe.

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Originally posted by The17sss And here... read this article about the Canadian health care system that you must seem to think is so wonderful... since you make a big deal about so many americans not having health insurance http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...299282509335931 It's about your boy Claude Castonguay who created the socialist system in Canada... and how after years of watching it play out, he admits the utter failure his own "revolutionary" plan has become.

dude, quoting an article from an unabashed right-wing website isn't going to win me over. Canada's healthcare system is NOT perfect, but it's a far sight better than yours, which is decided by fucking INSURANCE companies who continue to post record profits while minimizing coverage on a wide scale.

I live in Canada and have made full use of the healthcare system. and I've never paid a dime for a doctor visit, checkup or surgery. I tore my rotator cuff two years ago when I got hit by a car and I was seen immediately, treated and released the next day. My dad had a heart attack and was seen immediately! If you need attention, you WILL be seen and TREATED and that is a fact. If you have a cold or a sprained arm, yeah you are going to wait a few hours in emergency but you WILL be seen at NO COST.

All the scare mongering about our healthcare system from American insurance lobbyists is just that...scare mongering. Do we really need to compare horror stories based on the Canadian and American healthcare experience?

Healthcare is great in your country..IF you have the money. ANd I"m sorry but we don't want to live in a society where money is everything in Canada. Living and receiving medical attention is a fucking right and not something you should have to pay the private sector for.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The trouble is that being a centrist in Canada is viewed by many Americans as being some kind of nutcase liberal socialist.

...or arrogant and insensitive but thats just my opinion.

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Originally posted by Q5echo ...or arrogant and insensitive but thats just my opinion.

well you can think what you want. I like my country and I have a good life. You couldn't pay me to live in the United States.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 well you can think what you want. I like my country and I have a good life. You couldn't pay me to live in the United States.

right. we got that.

I just cant wait to see how low the Republican party will go this time to win this election.From what I can see once again they will use extreme scare tactics to win votes.This time it seems Iran will be the excuse for them to show the American people that they are the only party that can defeat Iran by force like a true cowboy.

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Originally posted by The17sss Nobody can afford their mortgages anymore? How the fuck is that Bush's fault? Why don't the people who irresponsibly accept loans from banks for a $250,000 house who KNOW they can't afford the payments get any of the blame? What about the banks who could clearly see peoples' finanical statements before getting the loan and know they can't afford it? No... let's blame it on Bush.

You can thank the deregulation of McCain's lobbyist loving friend Phil Gramm for deregulating the financial sector, allowing ultra high levels of leverage to be taken, and giving banks the leeway to take more risk than they could possibly handle!

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 dude, quoting an article from an unabashed right-wing website isn't going to win me over. Canada's healthcare system is NOT perfect, but it's a far sight better than yours, which is decided by fucking INSURANCE companies who continue to post record profits while minimizing coverage on a wide scale. I live in Canada and have made full use of the healthcare system. and I've never paid a dime for a doctor visit, checkup or surgery. I tore my rotator cuff two years ago when I got hit by a car and I was seen immediately, treated and released the next day. My dad had a heart attack and was seen immediately! If you need attention, you WILL be seen and TREATED and that is a fact. If you have a cold or a sprained arm, yeah you are going to wait a few hours in emergency but you WILL be seen at NO COST. All the scare mongering about our healthcare system from American insurance lobbyists is just that...scare mongering. Do we really need to compare horror stories based on the Canadian and American healthcare experience? Healthcare is great in your country..IF you have the money. ANd I"m sorry but we don't want to live in a society where money is everything in Canada. Living and receiving medical attention is a fucking right and not something you should have to pay the private sector for.

You nailed it on the head!

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer I just cant wait to see how low the Republican party will go this time to win this election.From what I can see once again they will use extreme scare tactics to win votes.This time it seems Iran will be the excuse for them to show the American people that they are the only party that can defeat Iran by force like a true cowboy.

I just hope the Diebold voting machines aren't rigged again like in 2004. It's clear the Republicans are willing to do ANYTHING to win an election. Including labeling the opposition candidate a traitor...

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Last edited by Krypton on Jul-27-2008 at 23:53

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 dude, quoting an article from an unabashed right-wing website isn't going to win me over. Healthcare is great in your country..IF you have the money.

Who cares what website it came from? The father of socialist medicine made the direct quotes as to the failure of his own idea... which is the point. Anyway, it's not as black and white as "if you have the money, healthcare in the US is great."

Poor people by the millions get government paid Medicaid... and no matter what, even if you are here illegally, anyone can go to the emergency room and can not be turned away and refused treatment.

My problem is paying for other people's medical expenses. Why is healthcare a "right" that the government should provide, via citizens footing the bill through taxes? If the govt stayed the hell out of healthcare, and let that industry operate like any other industry, the prices would be affordable through competition in the same way anything else in the free market is. When the govt puts their hands in there, and starts instituting all kinds of regulations, it goes sour. I don't think they can do anything better than the people who specialize in their respective fields. The government should be limited to just enough power to keep the peace and defend the nation. I think most people would not want to trade their fortunes and freedom to create a government that dictates choices to them.

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Originally posted by Krypton I just hope the Diebold voting machines aren't rigged again like in 2000.

once again history pwns you...and the vast internet conspiracy nuthouse

can you tell us when Diebold began participating in the US election system?

was Diebold in Florida in 1999?

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It's clear the Republicans are willing to do ANYTHING to win an election. Including labeling the opposition candidate a traitor...

who labeled him a traitor?

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Originally posted by Krypton You can thank the deregulation of McCain's lobbyist loving friend Phil Gramm for deregulating the financial sector, allowing ultra high levels of leverage to be taken, and giving banks the leeway to take more risk than they could possibly handle!

Nice McCain tie in there, Krypton... lol. Who are you talking about with lobbyist friends? Obama’s up to his ears in lobbyists in the ethanol industry.

I read PKCrailstin's quote from the other day asking you if you are on the Obama train now because you just want to be on a winning team. It made me wonder, and I ask this in all sincerity... why ARE you a huge Obama mark now? If you really are a registered republican, and like me, are disgusted at the way the GOP has changed as of late with all the big spending and expansion, then it's those traditional conservative principles that you stood for that the GOP has disappointed you on. Why, as a reaction to that disappointment, would you go so far to the left with your beliefs and support... even further to the left than the candidates were before Obama on the Democratic side? I would think you would stand fast in your conservative beliefs and principles, because being conservative doesn't equate to being a member of the GOP (more so now than ever). I'm just as let down as you are with the GOP and I think McCain sucks a fat one, but I can't imagine abandoning the ideals that make me conservaive, regardless of what the party was doing. Do ideals and principles so opposite from what you used to stand for make more sense now because the GOP let you down? It does kind of look like you want to be on the winning team... like you want to be a part of history or something. I may be wrong, but I'm asking because I really want to know.

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Originally posted by The17sss Who cares what website it came from? The father of socialist medicine made the direct quotes as to the failure of his own idea... which is the point. Anyway, it's not as black and white as "if you have the money, healthcare in the US is great." Poor people by the millions get government paid Medicaid... and no matter what, even if you are here illegally, anyone can go to the emergency room and can not be turned away and refused treatment. My problem is paying for other people's medical expenses. Why is healthcare a "right" that the government should provide, via citizens footing the bill through taxes? If the govt stayed the hell out of healthcare, and let that industry operate like any other industry, the prices would be affordable through competition in the same way anything else in the free market is. When the govt puts their hands in there, and starts instituting all kinds of regulations, it goes sour. I don't think they can do anything better than the people who specialize in their respective fields. The government should be limited to just enough power to keep the peace and defend the nation. I think most people would not want to trade their fortunes and freedom to create a government that dictates choices to them.

why is he a father of socialist medicine? Britain's National Health Service predates any form of socialised healthcare and Canada's system was largely based on their model. Besides, Tommy Douglas had a much more active role in pressuring the federal government (Trudeau's Liberal Administration) in the 1960s to adopt a nation-wide system.

And who says that healthcare is failing in Canada? Yes there are problems but there have always been problems. No system is perfect, but the vast majority of Canadians like our system the way it is and if any government tried to let the insurance companies run things here, they'd be brought down lightning fast with a no confidence motion.

There are long waits for non life-threatening surgeries like knee operations, etc. But Canadian healthcare is now largely focussed on attending to those who need care the most (cancer, heart attacks, brain issues, etc).

No Canadian citizen has EVER been turned down for medical care in this country and that's fact. You can't say the same for the millions of Americans who cannot afford to pay ridiculous premiums for SHITTY coverage. And then there are those who pay their premiums faithfully and then get fucked over by their insurers.

You dont want your taxes to pay for someone's healthcare? Well that's fine. But that isn't the way we do it here, or in most developed nations. And it's already apparent that a lot of Americans aren't happy with the way things are right now either.

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