Hey Eric, I just want to check you're not going over the top here.

I know well, if anyone on these boards is into sonic quality, its you, but you really are getting in to diminishing returns here. You could spend several grand and only get a small return.

The 2408 has good converters, even in relation to a lot of other interfaces and even though not quite as good as RME or Lynx, they do hold up as good quality DAC that many pro studios use.

At the studios I work at we either use RME Fireface 800's for firewire interfaces or fully expanded PTHD rigs.

Don't go down the aftermarket interface route for use PTHD. We tried it, with SSL and Apogee and there are many pitfalls, such as DD won't even entertain tech support issues with you (and we spend A LOT with them), and the interfaces always have some kind of compatibility issue (which they will point you to DD tech support for) , either with clocking, updates, etc. They really are in my experience, not worth it. I think PTHD is not great value for the quality in relation to how much they cost but they are designed to work fluidly as a system and it does work, especially when you need serious I/O.

I hate to say it but you either have to decide to go completely PTHD or not at all, not a semi system. It really isn't worth it. I know I state this from a position of a commercial studio, where we simply cannot have downtime, and minor system glitches are a big deal, but even for a situation of a project studio where it's just your time, you really have to know about the problems and decide if you want to spend a lot of production time dealing with them. I also wouldn't want to go down the route of PTHD right now as DD/avid are getting close to the end the product life cycle - historically they have done a major system/protocol change every 7/8 years and now HD is about to be 8.

The Lynx converters are wicked though. I've heard them and they really do sound great and I couldn't hear any colouration. In fact it freaked me out a little because I couldn't quite hear any spikes or scoops across the spectrum and thought I started to hear faults in the speakers (Custom Quested 2108, PMC MB2S, B&W 802).

the thing is, at this level you start to get in serious audio considerations. What cables are you using? What stands? How is the room treated and was the room designed for this?

I'm not saying don't strive for the best speaker and DAC combo, but I can't help thinking that at this fine level of quality, things like the material of your producing chair come in to signifigance.

I think the mackies are great but they have their faults. However they are the EDM standard, and if you know their faults then you can compensate for it. I would say, get the interface and see if you notice a massive difference. The reason: because if you get different speakers, A: they will sound very different even if they are flat so you won't be able to tell if you've made a wise choice with the interface. B: becuase speakers won't sound right until you burn them in, whereas the interface should be right straight out of the box.
You know the mackies by now so you can trust them.

just my 2c

Thanks for the reply, I completely see what you are saying here and I agree with a lot of it.

Having said that, let me offer to clear a few things up.

This is going to be a LONG post....

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Hey Eric, I just want to check you're not going over the top here. I know well, if anyone on these boards is into sonic quality, its you, but you really are getting in to diminishing returns here. You could spend several grand and only get a small return. The 2408 has good converters, even in relation to a lot of other interfaces and even though not quite as good as RME or Lynx, they do hold up as good quality DAC that many pro studios use. At the studios I work at we either use RME Fireface 800's for firewire interfaces or fully expanded PTHD rigs.

Well, the thing is this: I've been selling of a bunch of mid-level hardware that I basically never used. In the past 4 months, I've sold at least $2,000 worth of hardware with another $3,500 up for sale now. What I'm trying to accomplish here is the best value for my money. Going the software route for sound generation has not been a problem for me as I have been able to get the sounds I wanted out of all my software. The quality of hardware vs. software has been discussed ad nauseum on this form and many others, but for me, good quality software instruments and effects have served me well. This is not to say that I won't consider adding hardware to my studio again in the future, but for now, I have decided that it is better to sink my cash into the 3 most important parts of a studio: Computers, Audio Interface and Monitors. The computer is already taken care of, so now its is time to move on to the other two items.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Don't go down the aftermarket interface route for use PTHD. We tried it, with SSL and Apogee and there are many pitfalls, such as DD won't even entertain tech support issues with you (and we spend A LOT with them), and the interfaces always have some kind of compatibility issue (which they will point you to DD tech support for) , either with clocking, updates, etc. They really are in my experience, not worth it. I think PTHD is not great value for the quality in relation to how much they cost but they are designed to work fluidly as a system and it does work, especially when you need serious I/O. I hate to say it but you either have to decide to go completely PTHD or not at all, not a semi system. It really isn't worth it. I know I state this from a position of a commercial studio, where we simply cannot have downtime, and minor system glitches are a big deal, but even for a situation of a project studio where it's just your time, you really have to know about the problems and decide if you want to spend a lot of production time dealing with them. I also wouldn't want to go down the route of PTHD right now as DD/avid are getting close to the end the product life cycle - historically they have done a major system/protocol change every 7/8 years and now HD is about to be 8.

Totally see your point here and it is a good one. I may have misrepresented my intentions in an earlier post. Moving to PTHD is not really a huge primary objective for me at this point. Because of the decision to move to an all software environment, I wanted to explore the possibility of adding TDM plugins to my setup, which was the #1 consideration for adding Pro Tools gear to my existing setup. The fact that I use Logic only makes things easier as Logic has built in support for DAE and TDM plugins.

However, when asking a few questions on another forum about this possibility, several users strongly cautioned me against doing this type of setup simply because it did not appear to have a huge risk versus reward factor. Keep in mind these were mostly PTHD users themselves, so I kind of trusted what they were telling me. The general consensus was: Unless I'm planning on moving to PTHD as my primary DAW and willing to spend a boatload of cash on the investment it takes to get there, then it would be better to invest in improvements to my audio interface and monitors (and room).

Most of them agreed that my current setup of Logic Pro, with Native Plugins perfectly suited the needs of a composer, which is basically what we all are. If I was going a lot of tracking, live recording or exchanging files with other studios on a PTHD system, then PTHD might be a good investment. However, none of these things are true for me, so most of the people I talked to pointed out ,that, from a composers perspective, the setup I had was a better value.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN The Lynx converters are wicked though. I've heard them and they really do sound great and I couldn't hear any colouration. In fact it freaked me out a little because I couldn't quite hear any spikes or scoops across the spectrum and thought I started to hear faults in the speakers (Custom Quested 2108, PMC MB2S, B&W 802).

This is one of the reasons I trust the advice I am being given to go for the Aurora. I was given several concrete reasons why the Aurora products would best serve my needs from an I/O as well as a qualiy standpoint. As I stated earlier in this thread, I have to be able to trust the advice of people who have used most of the gear in this range, since I cannot afford to try it all out myself.

I could stick with MOTU interface, but if I am going to be investing a good chunk of my studio budget into just a few quality items, I figure its smarter to go with the highest quality stuff I can afford. It lasts longer and there is no question that I have risen above the level of "prosumer" with gear in this price range. I'm a huge believer in "you get what you pay for", and most of the time a $3,000 interface is going to sound better than a $1,500 one.

I want to be able to trust my gear from a performance standpoint as well as from a quality standpoint. The last thing I want to do is always be questioning what my stuff will sound like on the radio, in a car stereo or on a big club system. I need to know that its going to translate well and the first step to that is making sure the gear I am using is not sub-standard in any way. Its the old argument that "If you can't hear what is wrong, then how can you fix it?"

The Aurora stuff was recommended to me over the Apogee, RME and even some of the Prism stuff simply because of the reasons you stated: No colouration whatsoever and it outputs exactly what you put in it. No more, no less. The clock on this this is supposedly so good that you don't even really need any type of external clock whatsoever. The fact that it has the ability to act as I/O for PTHD is just a bonus. I may never use it, but it is nice to know it is there.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN the thing is, at this level you start to get in serious audio considerations. What cables are you using? What stands? How is the room treated and was the room designed for this?

Cables:
I am using Mogami Gold cables currently, so I feel pretty confident about those (and they weren't cheap).

Stands: I was recommended some monitor stands for the Focal Twins from a company called Sound Anchors in Florida. At first I wasn't too impressed because the website looks like garbage, but then I looked at who made the recommendation and wouldnt you know it, but a guy from Focal Professional, the manufacturer of the exact monitors I'm purchasing. For me, that is a source I can trust.

The one thing I am lacking at the moment is proper room treatment. Unfortunately, I'm probably always going to be stuck with a sub-standard room configuration. This is just a fact I'll have to live with, but my plan is to do everything I can, within reason, to make the best listening environment possible. This is kind of a sticky situation for me at the moment, because I'm fixing to get married in like a month, and were going to be moving to a new house right around the first of the year. I explained this to one of the guys I have been working with and he gave me some good tips on how to setup some cheap, temporary treatment in the room I have now. It won't be perfect, but it will do the job temporarily. After I get into my new space and figure out my requirements, then he and I are going to work on something a bit more permanent.

After I get the monitors and audio interface, my next #1 priority is going to be properly treating the new room. I have heard the difference that room treatment can make, so I'm planning on investing some money in good treatment products, based on the game plan we come up with.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I'm not saying don't strive for the best speaker and DAC combo, but I can't help thinking that at this fine level of quality, things like the material of your producing chair come in to signifigance.

Absolutely correct, this is one of the things we will be working out with acoustitician.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I think the mackies are great but they have their faults. However they are the EDM standard, and if you know their faults then you can compensate for it. I would say, get the interface and see if you notice a massive difference. The reason: because if you get different speakers, A: they will sound very different even if they are flat so you won't be able to tell if you've made a wise choice with the interface. B: becuase speakers won't sound right until you burn them in, whereas the interface should be right straight out of the box. You know the mackies by now so you can trust them. just my 2c

Well, I'm actually planning on keeping both sets of monitors for exactly this reason. I know that the Mackies are a good set of reference monitors, I know them well and I want to have more than one set of monitors to test my mixes on. They sound good for me on the top and bottom, its just the mids where I have a problem with them. Even on mixed CD's and tracks from artists whos' music I know well I can hear how scooped the mids are on the HR824's. I remember noticing it when I first got them, but you work with what you have. I know that one of the problems I have with translation of my music is that I can't ever seem to get the mid range exactly how I want it, especially with any type of "busy" EDM, like trance.

To me, its no coincidence that I spend so much time to properly mix the mids in my music, because I can't HEAR them properly on the Mackies. I usually have very few problems with the low and high ends. In addition, I have mixed music at other peoples studios (with proper room treatment and different monitors), and it's not nearly as big a problem in their environments as it is in my own. Some of this is probably sue to the room, but I believe that taking a step up in quality on my monitors is going to make a huge difference. I have even seem threads from other users who have upgrades from HR824's to the Focal Twins with similar results.

My game plan is basically, composition and mixdown on the Focal Twins, then testing and tweaking on the Mackies. I do not expect the Mackies to play any larger role than a simple A/B reference monitor.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I have put a lot of thought into this and feel fairly confident this is the right way to go based n my needs. However, I encourage you to feel free to disagree with any of what I have said and I always appreciate and try to listen to advice from others who know what they are talking about (which you obviously do).

OK, just got and set up the new Focal Twin 6's and all I have two words:


HOLY COW!!!!


The detail on these things is a major step up from my HR824's. I need some time to break them in, but even in the first few minutes I am seriously impressed. Even MP3's sound good on them, and they are PLEASANT! Not harsh, brittle or scooped at all! They make music sound like it is supposed to sound. Wide, full, not boosted or enhanced in any way. It reminds me of how music sounds when you are, lets say, "in a state", but you're actually stone cold sober.

I'll post more once I have had a chance to use them for a bit.

I have yet to buy a pair of quality monitors. Reading this whole thread has made me get the urge to purchase a pair of good monitors. I was leaning towards the Mackie Hr824 MKII's but you say the Focals are great what pair of monitors should I really invest my money towards thank you so much!

quote:

Originally posted by snatonsb I have yet to buy a pair of quality monitors. Reading this whole thread has made me get the urge to purchase a pair of good monitors. I was leaning towards the Mackie Hr824 MKII's but you say the Focals are great what pair of monitors should I really invest my money towards thank you so much!

Well if you can afford the Focal Twins, I personally recommend them based on my short time with them. The problem is that there is a huge price difference between the Mackie's and the Focal Twins. I mean your talking about $1,300 a pair for the Mackies versus $3,000 a pair for the Focals. If you can afford them, then its definitely worth the upgrade.

That being said, don't forget about your audio interface. Make sure you have at least a decent mid-level audio interface, and if not, you should also consider investing a decent amount of coin in that piece as well.

If need be, take it in steps, as I am doing. Upgrade Monitors first, upgrade audio interface second, or vice versa).

My personal philosophy is that you should invest as much as you can afford in the right solutions for the following three things:

1. Good Computer
2. Good Audio Interface
3. Good Monitors

Everything else should be a secondary consideration until these three things are taken care of. That's just my personal opinion, others on this forum may disagree.

Last edited by Eric J on Oct-07-2008 at 19:09

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Well if you can afford the Focal Twins, I personally recommend them based on my short time with them. The problem is that there is a huge price difference between the Mackie's and the Focal Twins. I mean your talking about $1,300 a pair for the Mackies versus $3,000 a pair for the Focals. If you can afford them, then its definitely worth the upgrade. That being said, don't forget about your audio interface. Make sure you have at least a decent mid-level audio interface, and if not, you should also consider investing a decent amount of coin in that piece as well. If need be, take it in steps, as I am doing. Upgrade Monitors first, upgrade audio interface second, or vice versa). My personal philosophy is that you should invest as much as you can afford in the right solutions for the following three things: 1. Good Computer 2. Good Audio Interface 3. Good Monitors Everything else should be a secondary consideration until these three things are taken care of. That's just my personal opinion, others on this forum may disagree.

Thank you so much for the advice. You also said the Lynx Aurora is good as an interface so should that be a consideration...? I have a Ibook Pro was looking to get a 2nd monitor to attach to my laptop. I also have to treat my room when I do purchase all of this. I know this is out of the topic but what do you think about purchasing a Virus TI Polar...? Thank you so much!

quote:

Originally posted by snatonsb Thank you so much for the advice. You also said the Lynx Aurora is good as an interface so should that be a consideration...? I have a Ibook Pro was looking to get a 2nd monitor to attach to my laptop. I also have to treat my room when I do purchase all of this. I know this is out of the topic but what do you think about purchasing a Virus TI Polar...? Thank you so much!

Honestly, if you are working with an iBook, I'd highly recommend purchasing a faster computer first before investing in anything else. An entry level Mac Pro or equivalent PC should be your first consideration. All told, a Mac Pro, Focal Twins and Aurora interface is going to run in the neighborhood of $10,000. Do you have the budget for this all at once?

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J OK, just got and set up the new Focal Twin 6's and all I have two words: HOLY COW!!!! The detail on these things is a major step up from my HR824's. I need some time to break them in, but even in the first few minutes I am seriously impressed. Even MP3's sound good on them, and they are PLEASANT! Not harsh, brittle or scooped at all! They make music sound like it is supposed to sound. Wide, full, not boosted or enhanced in any way. It reminds me of how music sounds when you are, lets say, "in a state", but you're actually stone cold sober. I'll post more once I have had a chance to use them for a bit.

wow, they do sound like the right investment. Need full review once you've put them through their paces.

Sorry, I forgot to respond to your last post (the long one).

Basically, I wanted to say that the Focals as your primary and the Mackies as your secondary reference is probably one of the finest and best thought out monitoring solutions that's been suggested, especially so for electronic music.

The focals will give you absolute clarity and the 824s will give you a classic dance music reference point. I wish I could afford this setup.

snatonsb, the mackies are great speakers - they do have some (very minor) character (as opposed to being completely flat or unbiased, but for EDM they really are an industry standard. They are a good purchase.

By the way eric, what did you decide for an audio interface? I'm recently hearing very good things (from engineers I trust) about the apogee symphony when used with Logic. Very stable, very flexible, sounds incredibly clear and some people are reporting stable latencies as low as 1.5 ms!

I'm still not sure if it beats the Lynx Auroura for clarity though....

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Honestly, if you are working with an iBook, I'd highly recommend purchasing a faster computer first before investing in anything else. An entry level Mac Pro or equivalent PC should be your first consideration. All told, a Mac Pro, Focal Twins and Aurora interface is going to run in the neighborhood of $10,000. Do you have the budget for this all at once?

Sorry I meant my MacBook Pro should be fast enough no..? It was a $3600 laptop dual core intel processor. 2gb of 667mhz ddr2 sdram and 160gb 5400-rpm hard drive. I have $6000 saved to spend on equipment is why I am asking all of this. Thank you for any advice you are giving though.

Last edited by snatonsb on Oct-07-2008 at 19:57

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN wow, they do sound like the right investment. Need full review once you've put them through their paces.

I'll definitely post a review after I have had them for a bit. You'll be able to hear the audible results of the work soon enough on my myspace in previews. I have had several tracks in the can that I wanted to mix on the new monitors, so I'll be posting previews of these and sending them out to labels very soon.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN By the way eric, what did you decide for an audio interface? I'm recently hearing very good things (from engineers I trust) about the apogee symphony when used with Logic. Very stable, very flexible, sounds incredibly clear and some people are reporting stable latencies as low as 1.5 ms! I'm still not sure if it beats the Lynx Auroura for clarity though....

Definitely going for the Lynx Aurora 16. I was going to go with the Aurora 8 for $1,000 less, but I really wanted the option to add hardware in the future and 8 inputs just seemed like too few. With 16 inputs, I should have plenty of expandability for the future. It still going to be close to the end of the year before I can pick it up, because at $3,000 for the interface plus $800 for the AES 16e card, I'm needing to save up for it.

There have been a couple of hardware pieces that have caught my attention recently, so I want those extra inputs.

Regarding the Apogee...

The thing about the Apogee's that I have been told is that the Apogee talks about their "Apogee sound" alot in their product literature (which I have seen a lot of). The way it was explained to me was this: If the Apogee converters are TRULY transparent, then how can there be any type of "Apogee sound"? Wouldn't the Apogee sound be no sound at all? Just straight through, transparent conversion?

I have had more than one person tell me that when they compared the Apogee converters with the Lynx and Prism converters, there is a small "bump" in the 400 Hz range of 1-2 db. This is what constitutes the "Apogee sound". Since most of these people do a lot of live band work, that small bump can multiply quickly, especially if you are continually running ADC and DAC by passing sounds in and out of outboard hardware.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Apogee has bad converters, I just have been told (and shown) that the Lynx converters are flatter and more transparent than the Apogee stuff by an order of magnitude, and at that price range, I want flat as a pancake in my ADC and DAC.

Anyway, I can put you in touch with the guy I deal with if you want to get the same story from him, as he can explain it a little better on the phone.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN By the way eric, what did you decide for an audio interface? I'm recently hearing very good things (from engineers I trust) about the apogee symphony when used with Logic. Very stable, very flexible, sounds incredibly clear and some people are reporting stable latencies as low as 1.5 ms!

Don't get caught in the hype too much

Latency is a factor which is mostly influenced by processing power, not so much the soundcard itself, given that is has proper drivers such as asio or the likes. I can go below 1ms with my soundcard as well, but it would almost triple the ammount of processing power necessary to accomplish such a low latency .

It takes more processing power to get the packages quickly and organised to the soundcard in a shorter timeframe, simply put. So in theory you can achieve very low latency with just a proper computer without any good soundcard.

Most important part is the quality/stability of the drivers and the ammount of detail the soundcard captures/exposes when converting the sound from the digital domain to the analog and vice versa .

Apogee is more or less an industry standard for high quality sound. There are others out there though. But apogee definitely is good



---
I just tested latency at 5.8ms, some track I used to test peaks at about 12% cpu, while it peaks at 22% with 0.7ms. No crackles at both settings

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quote:

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Last edited by Storyteller on Oct-07-2008 at 20:11