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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby University of Washington School of Law is very well received and their are a number of private colleges in Washington State that have good law programs. The California programs are very good as well for the most part. I am not sure of a lot of other systems, From people I know in both of those systems they seem to have enjoyed them and found them helpful to their careers. My suggestion is a public law school if you actually want to make it anywhere and still have room to climb. A lot of stigma is attached to private schools, especially in the Ivy League. That is not to say that they are bad schools, far from it, but you gain a lot of credibility if you actually have some merit other than the name of your school. Also do not succumb to the temptations of big firms when you graduate! Start small and make a name for yourself and gain experience! The public sector is a great way to do this and there are lots of opportunities in that sector (working for a public agency or a private firm that works with public agencies) to make good money if you work hard enough.

That might be the worst advice i've ever heard anyone give to a prospective law student.

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Originally posted by TranceGiant Admitted to Columbia and feeling like sharing. Guess that's enough for me to know already, my top choice, no matter what the other decisions will be. *starts infiltrating the NYC subsection on TA*

congrats. that's great. columbia gave me a big fuck you!

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 That might be the worst advice i've ever heard anyone give to a prospective law student.

And why is this?

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby And why is this?

Ivy league brings with it connections and opportunities you can't get from public schools.

As for your suggestion of steering away from BigLaw, that's almost laughable. If you want to work in the public sector, that may make sense. If you want to work in the private sector you almost need to take a position in a Big Law firm if it is available. Here's a short list of things I could think of at the moment:

First, the Big Law salary ($160+) will do much more to reduce the student loans that were necessary to go to law school. Second, Big Law offers a much superior chance at refining your legal skills with mentoring and guidance of the best legal minds. The resources available to associates at big firms is far superior to any you will have available at a small firm or in the public sector (human, technical, and other resources). Third, the connections you make at Big Law can help if you want to establish your own firm later in life. Fourth, why start at the bottom of the bottom when you can start at the bottom of the top? You have much higher to climb if you ignore that opportunity (if climbing to the top is your goal). Fifth, Big law is on your resume for the rest of your life. If you want to branch out and work in a corporate setting or move away from law and into the business world, all else equal, you will have much more credibility.

The hours at big law might suck, but its better to work and eat than to work hard and not eat. Breaking out on your own means building a client base, which is the most difficult part of any business including law. Why start doing that from the beginning before you actually become a proficient lawyer? Big firms do an excellent job building the foundation. If they don't break your spirit, you will be a much better lawyer for working at a big firm.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 Ivy league brings with it connections and opportunities you can't get from public schools. As for your suggestion of steering away from BigLaw, that's almost laughable. If you want to work in the public sector, that may make sense. If you want to work in the private sector you almost need to take a position in a Big Law firm if it is available. Here's a short list of things I could think of at the moment: First, the Big Law salary ($160+) will do much more to reduce the student loans that were necessary to go to law school. Second, Big Law offers a much superior chance at refining your legal skills with mentoring and guidance of the best legal minds. The resources available to associates at big firms is far superior to any you will have available at a small firm or in the public sector (human, technical, and other resources). Third, the connections you make at Big Law can help if you want to establish your own firm later in life. Fourth, why start at the bottom of the bottom when you can start at the bottom of the top? You have much higher to climb if you ignore that opportunity (if climbing to the top is your goal). Fifth, Big law is on your resume for the rest of your life. If you want to branch out and work in a corporate setting or move away from law and into the business world, all else equal, you will have much more credibility. The hours at big law might suck, but its better to work and eat than to work hard and not eat. Breaking out on your own means building a client base, which is the most difficult part of any business including law. Why start doing that from the beginning before you actually become a proficient lawyer? Big firms do an excellent job building the foundation. If they don't break your spirit, you will be a much better lawyer for working at a big firm.

Though I am not a lawyer myself, my entire family (extended as well) is. They all have said otherwise.

Working in a big law firm out of college is great for your loans, but good luck actually going anywhere there. You will most likely be filing briefs and working in the library rather than representing actual clients or getting any time in front of a judge.

Starting out on the low end (not your own practice, doing that from the start is retarded), in sectors where you are more needed for actual case work than anything else is the better way to go. You will get more time dealing with clients directly and probably spending some time in front of a judge. Both of these will easily lead to higher positions in bigger law firms later because you have the ability to actually practice law in its intended setting and not just be a glorified para-legal with an expensive education.

Take this from the child of an attorney who's father actually has argued in front of the Supreme Court of the United States (won) and now serves as a partner for one of the most successful public administration, education and municipal law firms in his state. He started as an assistant AG making a pittance and worked his way up through private firms because he had actual experience.

Granted everyone will have their own paths, and success can come from any multitude of decisions, but I think experience and actual work with clients is the best way to get to the top.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Though I am not a lawyer myself, my entire family (extended as well) is. They all have said otherwise. Working in a big law firm out of college is great for your loans, but good luck actually going anywhere there. You will most likely be filing briefs and working in the library rather than representing actual clients or getting any time in front of a judge. Starting out on the low end (not your own practice, doing that from the start is retarded), in sectors where you are more needed for actual case work than anything else is the better way to go. You will get more time dealing with clients directly and probably spending some time in front of a judge. Both of these will easily lead to higher positions in bigger law firms later because you have the ability to actually practice law in its intended setting and not just be a glorified para-legal with an expensive education. Take this from the child of an attorney who's father actually has argued in front of the Supreme Court of the United States (won) and now serves as a partner for one of the most successful public administration, education and municipal law firms in his state. He started as an assistant AG making a pittance and worked his way up through private firms because he had actual experience. Granted everyone will have their own paths, and success can come from any multitude of decisions, but I think experience and actual work with clients is the best way to get to the top.

EDIT: i guess it all depends on your goals. big firms don't really handle criminal cases and certain other issues. but if you want to do corporate law, securities law, tax law, etc... big firms are better.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Dec-10-2008 at 19:18

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 EDIT: i guess it all depends on your goals. big firms don't really handle criminal cases and certain other issues. but if you want to do corporate law, securities law, tax law, etc... big firms are better.

To some extent, yes. But I think that getting experience in front of a judge is very important.

Granted, the best lawyers keep their clients out of court, but if they ever do have to go to court then a lot of them will freak out if they hardly ever have to operate in a court room. Criminal or civil, this happens a lot and experience is needed.

There is really no detriment to your career (maybe your pocketbook) by starting out working in the public sector, even if you want to do corporate law, tax, securities, etc.

There are public sides to all those practices and usually knowing both sides of the coin is incredibly helpful in finding future positions. I know most big firms would look favorably on someone who say worked for the SEC or in a state AG's office handling criminal matters related to the financial field if you were applying for a position in those fields, even if you would tend to only work on the civil side of things.

Also, serving the public good before you succumb to a private firm will also help you not come off as the typical blood sucker.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby To some extent, yes. But I think that getting experience in front of a judge is very important. Granted, the best lawyers keep their clients out of court, but if they ever do have to go to court then a lot of them will freak out if they hardly ever have to operate in a court room. Criminal or civil, this happens a lot and experience is needed. There is really no detriment to your career (maybe your pocketbook) by starting out working in the public sector, even if you want to do corporate law, tax, securities, etc. There are public sides to all those practices and usually knowing both sides of the coin is incredibly helpful in finding future positions. I know most big firms would look favorably on someone who say worked for the SEC or in a state AG's office handling criminal matters related to the financial field if you were applying for a position in those fields, even if you would tend to only work on the civil side of things. Also, serving the public good before you succumb to a private firm will also help you not come off as the typical blood sucker.

i think indeed working for an administration from the public sector can be very an excellent start.One of my teacher after having worked in a private big law firm then worked for 7 years for the french stock market's reguator and now has been hired again by one big law firm in paris.
to have him as teacher is really great because he can give us his point of view as a previous regulator but can still guide us with the lawyer's point of view.
the master has a partnership with the french regulator and i think it must be a great opportunity to work there even though u just want to go on in a private law firm.

Speaking about big law firms , i dont know how is it in US but i might do my internship into a big one (first interview next tuesday!) but anyway i got warned......a piece of shit or me will equal the same

on one hand, i think big law firms (even if it's my goal later to integrate one) are good for the name and blah blah ,on the other hand, but having done an internship into a small firm in my hometown i learnt so much and the lawyers there were still looking humans not despising because im just a little law student.taking time to explain things and make me work on real things and never did i feel inferior or anything.
for the human side i think small firms are much better.

___________________
2/09/07 Zabiela @ Pacha..... -confirmed-

erik + andy + marie = united in nerdyness <3

ps :wick sucks dicks !

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 congrats. that's great. columbia gave me a big fuck you!

Thanks a lot, but remember we're talking LLM here, you cannot compare this admission to the achievement of getting into regular 3-year law school. I'm quite happy I didn't have to deal with the LSAT procedure, I know for sure I'd have had a hard time with it. On the other hand, my 4 years of blood, sweat and nervous breakdowns at my home Law School was enough of a test

As for your other points, that's more or less what I concluded after my research. Since I'm not a Tax guy at all but rather interested in the areas you mentioned (namely Corporate and Securities, but also academic subjects such as Legal Philosophy, Legal Interpretation to add some spice), Harvard and Columbia are definitely the top choices. Since I got into one of these already, I can be pretty relaxed in anticipating Harvard's decision. I don't rate my chances highly at all, but who knows, I'll lean back and wait.

Regarding NYU vs. Columbia: It's very simple. In my country NYU's reputation doesn't come close to Columbia's. I know that doesn't reflect the actual difference in quality, but a you said, it's all about prestige and brands. Additionally, in the LLM department, NYU has a class of 450 (and incidentally, every second Austrian did his LLM at NYU) while Columbia with half this class size is considered more selective naturally. Berkeley (80) and Chicago (50!) have even smaller, very exclusive classes, but then again the "prestige" argument applies, unfortunately. Of course Columbia's immediate surroundings may be less "fun", but first I'm not sure I'll be granted campus accomodation and secondly, what's stopping me from hanging out at East Village at night?

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Last edited by TranceGiant on Dec-10-2008 at 21:41

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Originally posted by CranberryJuice i think indeed working for an administration from the public sector can be very an excellent start.One of my teacher after having worked in a private big law firm then worked for 7 years for the french stock market's reguator and now has been hired again by one big law firm in paris. to have him as teacher is really great because he can give us his point of view as a previous regulator but can still guide us with the lawyer's point of view. the master has a partnership with the french regulator and i think it must be a great opportunity to work there even though u just want to go on in a private law firm. Speaking about big law firms , i dont know how is it in US but i might do my internship into a big one (first interview next tuesday!) but anyway i got warned......a piece of shit or me will equal the same on one hand, i think big law firms (even if it's my goal later to integrate one) are good for the name and blah blah ,on the other hand, but having done an internship into a small firm in my hometown i learnt so much and the lawyers there were still looking humans not despising because im just a little law student.taking time to explain things and make me work on real things and never did i feel inferior or anything. for the human side i think small firms are much better.

It's the same everywhere. Suffer some time at the "big law firms" to beef up your CV, then make the cut and lookg for something mor fulfilling.

I'm sure this dilemma is not confined to Austria but is universal:

Big Law:
+ Money, prestige, team work
- ridiculous working hours, no life, monotone work, little autonomy,
neutral: specialization in a small number of very specific fields,

Small Law:
+ more flexibility, more responsibility, more variety, better working conditions
- no fame, no money, sometimes little unsatisfying cases

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant It's the same everywhere. Suffer some time at the "big law firms" to beef up your CV, then make the cut and lookg for something mor fulfilling. I'm sure this dilemma is not confined to Austria but is universal: Big Law: + Money, prestige, team work - ridiculous working hours, no life, monotone work, little autonomy, neutral: specialization in a small number of very specific fields, Small Law: + more flexibility, more responsibility, more variety, better working conditions - no fame, no money, sometimes little unsatisfying cases

well the law firm i worked the lawyers were not poor, each of them earning around 10, 000 Euros a month !
but anyway the road is still long til i ever get the choice to wonder so what?should i quit the big law firm and settle down in a smaller town lol

___________________
2/09/07 Zabiela @ Pacha..... -confirmed-

erik + andy + marie = united in nerdyness <3

ps :wick sucks dicks !

"Big" or "Small"...as a fresh graduate you'll work your ass off as an "assistant" for about 4 years here, for, AT BEST, 2.300 Euro net/month.
Stay in France

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”