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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by XaNaX
The point that people are missing here is the only reason this clown asked the question is because he doesn't make anywhere near $250K right now. Anyone who makes that kind of money is aware of tax shelters that will soften the blow of any increase.


Not necessarily true by any means. A bit presumptuous of you if anything. So goes the assumption that the rich are evil and don't pay their "fair share"...Further, fwiw, Joe Plumber stated how much money he thought he'd be making if he were to purchase the business. I think he said $260-280K...right in the wheelhouse. I love that he's a "clown" in your book for whatever reason. "Hey Joe the Clown! You're sitting on the edge of the people I'm going to screw, but your opinion is meaningless! You're just a dumb plumber!"

quote:
It's not like Obama is proposing a 75% tax on income over $250K, it is a small increase and the wealthy in this country that have to pay it shouldn't bitch too much, after all they did just get 8 years of tax breaks from Bush.


And again, so goes the slippery slope argument. "It's just a little bit...you can afford it...come on, spread the wealth around a bit...do it for the good of your COMMON man!

You make the assumption that because someone makes more than you that hey have so much more spare cash laying around or that they have so much ease meeting their obligations...that you should be able to lay claim to ANY amount of their wealth, NO MATTER HOW SMALL, in the name of the common good. That it is the government's RIGHT to confiscate someone else's wealth because the government is somehow the ultimate arbiter of what is "FAIR" and should be able to redistribute wealth at will. Since you cannot legally steal from the so-called rich, you hide behind the government to legitimize it.

Old Post Oct-17-2008 15:26  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by XaNaX
The point that people are missing here is the only reason this clown asked the question is because he doesn't make anywhere near $250K right now. Anyone who makes that kind of money is aware of tax shelters that will soften the blow of any increase. This is a non-issue to me even though McCain is all over it. It's not like Obama is proposing a 75% tax on income over $250K, it is a small increase and the wealthy in this country that have to pay it shouldn't bitch too much, after all they did just get 8 years of tax breaks from Bush.


that's how i make my living, although the tax shelter business was almost entirely shut down by the IRS. Rich people avoid paying taxes by designing compensation packages with equity (15% tax), deferring compensation until they retire, taking a profits interest in a partnership (15% tax), receiving perc (company pays insurance), and investing in real estate or other businesses that are economically profitable but show tax loses (taking advantage of accelerated depreciation, deduction of financing expense, etc...).

Old Post Oct-17-2008 17:00  United States
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Not necessarily true by any means. A bit presumptuous of you if anything. So goes the assumption that the rich are evil and don't pay their "fair share"...Further, fwiw, Joe Plumber stated how much money he thought he'd be making if he were to purchase the business. I think he said $260-280K...right in the wheelhouse. I love that he's a "clown" in your book for whatever reason. "Hey Joe the Clown! You're sitting on the edge of the people I'm going to screw, but your opinion is meaningless! You're just a dumb plumber!"



And again, so goes the slippery slope argument. "It's just a little bit...you can afford it...come on, spread the wealth around a bit...do it for the good of your COMMON man!

You make the assumption that because someone makes more than you that hey have so much more spare cash laying around or that they have so much ease meeting their obligations...that you should be able to lay claim to ANY amount of their wealth, NO MATTER HOW SMALL, in the name of the common good. That it is the government's RIGHT to confiscate someone else's wealth because the government is somehow the ultimate arbiter of what is "FAIR" and should be able to redistribute wealth at will. Since you cannot legally steal from the so-called rich, you hide behind the government to legitimize it.


How is this not socialism??


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Old Post Oct-17-2008 17:20  Canada
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

We can probably start to put this to bed:

quote:
As ThinkProgress and many others noted yesterday, the premise of Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher’s complaints about Barack Obama’s tax plan was ill-informed. Contrary to Wurzelbacher’s claims, “neither his personal taxes nor those of the business where he works are likely to rise if Mr. Obama’s tax plan were to go into effect.”

As CBS News reported, even “Joe The Plumber” acknowledges this fact now:

So today, Joe, who said he makes much less than $250,000, reluctantly admitted Obama would lower his taxes.

“I would, if you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cuts,” Wurzelbacher said.

Watch it:



Bloomberg reports that “one other problem in making Wurzelbacher a symbol of the overtaxed” is that — even if he did earn an adjusted gross income of $280,000 — “he would pay just $773 more in taxes under Obama’s plan than McCain’s.” That amount would hardly deal a crippling blow to his potential small business.

Last night, Sarah Palin said she didn’t want to talk about Wurzelbacher. “I begged our speechwriters, ‘Don’t make me say Joe the Plumber, please, in any speeches,” she said. After failing to properly vet Wurzelbacher’s situation, the McCain campaign is apparently now throwing him overboard and moving on.

The campaign is holding a conference call today with Russ Deker, an individual the McCain camp is calling “a Missouri ‘Joe the Plumber.’”


http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/17...mber-obama-cut/

Old Post Oct-17-2008 19:37  Australia
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
We can probably start to put this to bed:



http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/17...mber-obama-cut/



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Old Post Oct-17-2008 19:45  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City

^ Hardly. This is just another example of the McCain campaign's poor performance and failure to fully vet the people that matter before they shine the spotlight. Lets just hope Joe continues to fade away quietly and avoid a bursting bubble that wouldn't be good for anyone. Thankfully he was able to take the media onslaught with some manner of grace, kudos to him for that.

EDIT:

quote:
But under the glare of the ensuing media spotlight, reporters found that Mr. Wurzelbacher did not actually have a plumbing license, and that he actually owed some back taxes. Mr. McCain leapt to his defense here Friday in a rally at Florida International University — and made another leap by suggesting that the Obama campaign was somehow maligning the plumber whose vote Mr. Obama has sought at a campaign stop in Ohio.

“The response from Senator Obama and his campaign yesterday was to attack Joe,” Mr. McCain said. “People are digging through his personal life, and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house. He didn’t ask for Senator Obama to come to his house. He wasn’t recruited or prompted by our campaign. He just asked a question.
And Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/u...ml?ref=politics

-sigh-

Last edited by josh4 on Oct-17-2008 at 20:53

Old Post Oct-17-2008 20:11  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

I don't give a shit about Joe the Plumber--again it's the philosophy involved and the slippery slope that Obama is pushing.

Don't worry Josh, you too will have a job and a family to support some day.

Old Post Oct-17-2008 22:07  United States
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xKaoSx
I need more cow bell !!



Registered: Jul 2002
Location: San Diego, Ca.

quote:
Originally posted by josh4
^ Hardly. This is just another example of the McCain campaign's poor performance and failure to fully vet the people that matter before they shine the spotlight. Lets just hope Joe continues to fade away quietly and avoid a bursting bubble that wouldn't be good for anyone. Thankfully he was able to take the media onslaught with some manner of grace, kudos to him for that.

EDIT:


-sigh-


He also didnt ask to be the center of the debate which McCain had no problem in doing so hence calling for the scrutiny.

If the McCain camp would have not even mentioned this none of this would have even been relevant.


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Old Post Oct-17-2008 22:36  United States
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josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
I don't give a shit about Joe the Plumber--again it's the philosophy involved and the slippery slope that Obama is pushing.

Don't worry Josh, you too will have a job and a family to support some day.


Oh bullshit, as if I'm too naive to understand and wouldn't feel the way I do now should my situation be different. I get the philosophy and I agree with the methods.

Regardless, as Occrider put it
quote:
Originally posted by occrider
What draws me about Obama is that he his economic team is comprised of some extremely smart advisers. He's attracted Warren Buffet, Robert Rubin, however, more importantly he's attracted Volker (who else is better during this time of scareflation???) and former bush administration officials such as Paul O'Neill and William Donaldson. Has McCain been "crossing the party line" in this respect?
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=485849


In the end, if its good enough for those guys, its good enough for me. Can't possibly be any worse than the past 8 years. (That was a cherry just for you.)

Last edited by josh4 on Oct-17-2008 at 23:35

Old Post Oct-17-2008 23:29  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by xKaoSx
He also didnt ask to be the center of the debate which McCain had no problem in doing so hence calling for the scrutiny.

If the McCain camp would have not even mentioned this none of this would have even been relevant.


yeah, it's painfully obvious you think the "relevancy" of Obama's answer to Joe's question is directly proportional how many times its mentioned. so not mention it at all and everything will be fine is your defence? tell me something thats not so obvious

more to the point though...my God you people never cease to amaze me.

how many times have politicians invoked people they've met on the campaign trail in a stump speech or debate of some sort? people like this are invoked because of their common connection with not only the electorate at large but whatever percieved connection they have to that particular candidate's viewpoint. how is this guy any different? i'll tell you why...

this time the person who was invoked revealed something very telling about Obama, now he's targeted like a public official instead of who he really is or represents, the electorate.

McCain brought up this guy because of what it revealed about your candidate, plain and simple. if anything is telling now it's how people like you tolerate, even condone, the personal destuction of people for what they believe in or what they expect out of the people THEY want working for THEM.

if you can't step out of the f**king box and see how f**ked up that is then you are what's wrong with this country not guys like Joe the Plumber or even Obama for that matter

Old Post Oct-17-2008 23:32  United States
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
How is this not socialism??


oh, for crying out loud

"socialism" is the ownership of private property by the workers that previously worked that property. basically it means those that were employed by the business now have a real input into the running and operation of that business.

socialism has nothing to do with income taxation.


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Old Post Oct-17-2008 23:59  Australia
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Thumbs up

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
It's pretty sad that the Republicans are starting to pin their hopes on this guy. If nothing else it shows just how desperate and bereft of ideas they are at the moment (as if the ACORN / Ayers narrative wasn't enough of a clue).

In addition to the article that josh posted, this MSNBC article is pretty enlightening:



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27221645/

Put simply, this guy is either a liar and a shill (the fact that he's a registered Republican and appears quite adept at parrotting Republican talking-points would seem to bear this out) or he is simply self-aggrandising and delusional. To be honest, I'm more inclined to the latter.

The delusion concerning wealth mobility in America is a common one: something like 40% of Americans believe that they will one day be in the top 1% of income-earners. This is a myth (happily peddled by the Republicans, of course) which belies the fact that across all countries there is an inverse correlation between wealth inequality and wealth mobility (link) and there is less social mobility in the US than in the UK and the "socialised" Scandinavian countries (link). I think this is a myth that our friend Joe, based on the response he gave in an interview with Katie Couric, has bought into hook, line and sinker:



If it is true that he is only making $40,000 a year into his 40s, then the odds of him ever making $250,000 a year are surely vanishingly slim. He is voting directly against his best interests now based on the false hope that he will one day make it into the top tax-bracket. He's not living the American Dream, he's living an American day-dream.

Part of the problem is undoubtedly the way that the issue of taxation has been so successfully framed by the Republicans in recent history. The Democrats, so the story goes, like to egregiously "tax and spend" the income of "hard-working Americans" and are actively engaged in the process of "wealth redistribution". This is dog-whistle politics at its finest: the implication is that you are a hard worker entitled to the fruits of your labour, whereas they are nothing but lazy welfare-bums, happy to leech off the hard-work of others. This is such a paranoid, cynical world-view, so completely divorced from the reality of the root causes of poverty that it barely merits redressing. However, it is a persistent myth, and one that has been quite effective in convincing poor, white people to vote against their direct interests.

As insiduously effective as this GOP characterisation of Democratic tax policy has been, I don't think that Joe - or any other working-class Americans who have bought into this myth - can be completely exempt from responsibility for their gullibility. This is a bit of a tangent, but there has been a series of interesting posts on this Christian blog recently about why people so credibly buy into misinformation:



The original post didn't have anything to do with this issue, but I think the maxim is a universal one: people do not accept and propogate such misinformation so readily unless they have an underlying desire to do so. When Obama gives Joe a nuanced answer about increasing the tax burden on those businesses that can most afford it in order to give breaks to small business just starting out (which would include Joe's putative business), it ends up in Joe's mind as evidence of "socialism" and "wealth distribution" within the space of a couple of days (compare this to this). That isn't innocent stupidity, that's malicious ignorance.

This of course begs the question as to why someone would so willingly buy into such misinformation. The blog I mentioned before uses the term "Melon morality" to describe the phenomenon where people invent fictitious monsters to compare themselves down to, in order to aggrandise their own moral disposition:



By any sense of the word, the life that Joe leads is a mediocre one. If he has bought into the myth that hard-work necessarily translates into wealth, then it would be understandable if he suffers agonising moments in which he questions his self-worth. The simplest and easiest way to allay these doubts is to compare himself down to a ficticious cabal of welfare cheats, who must only be poor because they don't share his work-ethic (which is highlighted in an interview that he gave - which I now cannot find for the life of me - in which he questioned why his wealth should be redistributed to those who don't work as hard as he does).

This need to make a virtue of modest acheivements facilitates a self-aggrandising "optical illusion", where one's own otherwise unremarkable virtues are contrasted with the virtues of a demographic that doesn't actually exist. Poor whites thus vote against their interests, because they have a visceral need to believe that they are not like those poor people, who are content to just mooch off the hard-work of others. People like Joe therefore willingly refuse to recognise the realities of their socio-economic status, because by doing so they would have to necessarily conflate themselves with the people they have invented in order to make themselves look more virtuous.

Given all this, when Obama becomes president and mails Joe that tax credit to get his business off the ground, I hope that he has enough integrity to mail it back, lest he participate in this insidious process of wealth-distribution. Somehow, though, I can't see that happening.


fucking awesome post james.


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Old Post Oct-18-2008 00:11  Australia
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