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Originally posted by dynomite8 you didn't read a word i wrote, i don't see where i'm defending to dj on any level and in fact i don't know a single person on a personal level that i like as an artist who uses it for anything but live, so you are implying i'm taking a completley different stance than i am.

no i think you misread me actually, or i just wasn't clear enough...im trying to imply that if you were not friends with jamie jones i would tend to think you would NOT defend ableton in any live/djing form since you come from the school of hip hop and vinyl.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 in fact the only people i ever see use ableton to dj are hipsters playing inappropriate music early, to empty rooms or big name big room artists that i don't know well enough to know how ableton effects their programming.

you've never seen sasha? i know Clovis has.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 i am originally a house dj who took on playing old school hip hop to make money, and it worked.

nothing wrong with that. was just trying to point out how you might have the purist hip hop vinyl turntablism mindset when it comes to this.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 jamie jones doesn't use ableton to dj, don't know what he has to do with this though he does currently collaborate with me

you answered your own question.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 and he does an excellent live p.a. of his own music with ableton once in a great while.

im not denying his or anyone elses talent.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 someone in this thread asked what ableton did compared to cdjs, i answered and added my opinion about what makes it different for djing.

and i responded with facts.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 my opinion is that, at least for anyone asking these kinds of questions about what ableton is vs cdj in a tranceaddict thread, ableton djing would lead to 1) preprogramming your set, by preparing you set markers, clips, etc. . . organizing your liveset you are planning to play, taking away one thing i think djing is about which is programming the night what you play by the crowd and what they are building towards. what ableton adds in terms of spontinaeity for live sets, it takes away in for djing.

you can choose any track you wish to play next, how is this different from normal djing? the setup for (most) livesets is on a completely different screen than the one used for DJing.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 2) not beatmatching. yes i understand, who cares you don't need to beatmatch, but the guy asked what the program did. i like the swing live djing adds. but yeah . . i get it blake beatmatching isn't everything, but i do think it adds something to the equation, and i don't really see the point in cutting it out of the equation.

but you do have to beatmatch in ableton, via warp markers. warping is an idea that less people can wrap their head around than beatmatching. as far as swing, if you are talking about beats going slightly out of phase, thats called trainwrecking or chasing beats. if you like that, then yes you are definitely entitled to your own opinion on that. if you are talking about swing in the production sense, then that is a totally different idea.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 but if people are pre programming their set and not beatmatching, it seems to me like putting in that kind of preparation should just be spent on writing the music they could be playing in a live set. i don't see the upside to djing other peoples music with it. thats my point

no one pre plans their dj set with ableton any more than they would putting vinyl in their crate or burning cds before the gig. i think you honestly just dont understand how djing with ableton works...id love to show you sometime though.

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shit i'd just deleted that to write a more appropriate response, oh well

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Originally posted by dynomite8 shit i'd just deleted that to write a more appropriate response, oh well

you pretty much wrote the same thing just in a nicer way


i still love you lee, i just feel its my job around here to challenge techno purism and educate a little bit when opinions start flying around instead of facts.

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though i feel pretty confident in using ableton to write music, clearly there is something i'm not seeing about it as a dj tool, so i'll plead obstinance at this point, so yeah id be happy to have you show me when im home.

i still think it has a lot more benefits for someone like you who also uses it to write music (and is im sure still using it partially to trigger his own samples) than there are for a newcomer to djing, which is how i usually see it used here in los angeles, for hipster hackery.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 i still think it has a lot more benefits for someone like you who also uses it to write music (and is im sure still using it partially to trigger his own samples) than there are for a newcomer to djing, which is how i usually see it used here in los angeles, for hipster hackery.

I can definitely see where you are coming from with this, and i too find it slightly annoying. DJing opens itself up to all kinds of oversaturation, and as technology advances it will just get worse. It's your job as a DJ to set yourself apart from the others and become "better" or in higher demand than them...it's not their fault it was so easy for them to become a DJ and you shouldn't hold it against them.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 ... it is making the songs the same speed, meaning if someone is doing a ableton dj set, the songs are already more or less pre decided, and they are pre beatmatched taking both mixing, and programming out of the equation.

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Originally posted by dynomite8 ...and to some extent takes programming/choosing from an infinite number of next possible tracks out of the equation...

so let me ask you this... you're telling me that b/c you are loading 100 tracks that you may possibly play, into Ableton, it is not the same as loading up your CD wallet with 100 songs that you may possibly play that night?

To me, it's the same damn thing just in a different domain.

anyone see my point?

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Quote from Eric Cloutier:

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hasn't everyone picked up on the fact that deadmou5's relevance and clout are slim to none? he's not talented at all, he uses presets like there's no tomorrow, he shit talks the people that buy his music, he doesn't do a thing he says he does, and he's pretty much a fucking muppet. why you people continue to support someone who's so blatantly taking you for a ride is pretty troubling to me.

Last edited by Quadlow on Dec-05-2008 at 17:56

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Originally posted by seneca so let me ask you this... you're telling me that b/c you are loading 100 tracks that you may possibly play, into Ableton, it is not the same as loading up your CD wallet with 100 songs that you may possibly play that night? To me, it's the same damn thing just in a different domain. anyone see my point?

I was going to make the same critique of that as well.

By the previously offered argument, couldn't one then also suggest that Serato / Traktor eliminate the art of DJing because they conveniently place all of your tracks in an easily accessible digital form?

edited for relevance.

Quote from Feori Gaspacci:

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Deadmau5 has touched the hearts and minds of many. While looking on the surface may yield the impression that all of his tracks sound the same, taking a closer look will tell you Deadmau5 is a thriving sea of styles. He is a ground-breaking artist who has separated himself from everyone else and shown that when you are skillful, innovative, and a good businessman and marketer, you don't have to be nice to anyone. (You don't have to be a dick, either, but I digress.) While he was not the first artist to do the now-signature "8th" note style, he has surely made it into his own niche-form. His harshness is a celebration of every human's need to be real to themselves. Every human's need to be themselves, free of restraints. Yet for the majority of our lives we do feel restrained - restrained by society to kiss ass. Be nice to everyone around us - never step on any toes - never burn any bridges - never break any glass. And this numbs us to the fabric of existence which is so vital to real life. Deadmau5 is the ultimate manifestation of real living.

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Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell what exactly is the Clovis definition of DJing then? what mechanics are involved, if any? what artist expression is involved, if any? is this definition static, or is it something you change to be contrary with people on forums? correct me if im wrong, but in one instance it seems like you are basing djing on beatmatching, while in the other instance you are implying that its not required (radio djing). in the end, i dont think you are so much defending the content of your opinion, but moreso defending the fact that you HAVE an opinion.

Beatmatching is not required in every instance. The reason I think radio DJing (start/stop style) is more actual DJing is because the focus is completely on the music being played and the means are completely irrelevant.

With ableton, the means of playing the music become a large part of the show. Most people you ask will say that ableton should only be used for DJing if the person using it is doing something interesting with it, like re-editing and remixing on the fly, and splicing things together. My problem with this, is that I don't think good, quality dance music needs to be fucked with, to put it bluntly I think that having to make tracks work with each other as they are or with minor edits is a much more pure form of dance music DJing. Ableton to me offers too many possibilities, I used to love it for that, but the more I DJ and the more artists I've seen rocking parties with two technics and a mixer or similar, the more I've come to believe that because ableton lets you do ANYTHING, it is more detrimental to the DJing process than advantageous. I used to use it a lot, copying Sasha's lead, keeping a loop of the outgoing track over the next one, making quick mashups on the fly. It's a lot of fun, but I don't think that it adds anything for the listener, in terms of DJing. I don't think that good dance music needs to be improved upon live by the DJ. This isn't to say that someone can't use it to DJ very well, I think Sasha has put out some great sets with it and so have others. But overall, I see it as detrimental.

This runs into a problem then, because since I no longer think using ableton to that extent is necessary, that leads me to the belief that it is pretty much a pointless tool for DJing. It takes too much away from the way I prefer DJing, with emphasis on raw feeling and the present moment, and just kind of going with the flow. I've gone back to use Live for playing music for fun at home, and it just doesn't feel right. I spend too much time setting up how I want a mix to happen instead of just working the tracks together in the moment and having to make them fit as they are. I also like the aspect of sloppyness that using decks provides. It reminds me that someone is really working in the booth, that there is a human element involved beyond just turning some EQ knobs and deciding what goes next.

Some of my favorite DJs, Lazarus, Ricardo, Three, etc...what I love about them is that I can tell that they don't overthink things too much, they go with the flow and do what feels right, and thats when I think DJing is the most fun and when amazing things can happen. I just think that ableton (and things like Hawtin's new 4 deck Traktor setup) take away from that.

Maybe in 10 years I'll grow bored of that and want to use ableton to challenge myself, who knows. But for right now this is what I think.

I should note that, the above being said, like you stated earlier, what really matters is the floor and the music. We can argue all day about the rest, but what really matters is that. I'm just as likely to get down to a good ableton set with great music that is tastefully done as I am to Magda riding the pitch through a shakey mix of two mindfuck tracks.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Quadlow Quote from Eric Cloutier:

Fuck Eric is the man.

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.