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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby But could his music be called electronic music, or classical music done with electronics?

I don't think there's really a difference. If something's done with synths and sampling (tape machines in this case), then it's automatically "electronic music," IMO, even if it's composed with "classical" influence and mentality. Electronic and classic are not mutually exclusive categories.

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I am trying to make a distinction between music that was a completely new genre and music that was just using a different technology.

This is problematic here because in classical music the concept of "genre" is entirely different from what it is in pop music. In classical music "song" and "sonata" and "concerto" and "symphony" are genres. "Genre" in classical music refers to formal arrangement and instrumentation features, while in ordinary (popular) musical discussion it refers to mostly the "sound" of a work. Stockhausen was certainly trying to break from traditional "classical" conventions in many ways.

Yeah, electronic music is just a music that has a soul. That's an awesome definition. And how do you exactly can tell when someone makes a piece with soul in it and when there's no soul?

Joss: ambient as a genre tag was probably the first that popped out that we associate with electronic music today, but that's completely irrelevant and means nothing. Ambient was not the first form of electronic music, period.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I don't think there's really a difference. If something's done with synths and sampling (tape machines in this case), then it's automatically "electronic music," IMO, even if it's composed with "classical" influence and mentality. Electronic and classic are not mutually exclusive categories. This is problematic here because in classical music the concept of "genre" is entirely different from what it is in pop music. In classical music "song" and "sonata" and "concerto" and "symphony" are genres. "Genre" in classical music refers to formal arrangement and instrumentation features, while in ordinary (popular) musical discussion it refers to mostly the "sound" of a work. Stockhausen was certainly trying to break from traditional "classical" conventions in many ways.

I meant genre in the Oxford dictionary way. Not in a classical distinction way.

And true, its a determination of sub-genres in classical, just the same as calling electronic music a genre and then things like trance or techno or house sub-genres.

But they in themselves have sub-genres and more genres inside of those.

I am not sure what the real hierarchal for music would be... maybe more like the animal kingdom?

Even if you want to call things like Musique Concrete more early than "ambient" I would even go so far as to say that is "ambient" as well... maybe literally more ambient as it is manipulation of sounds around people... ambient sounds, like trains.

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Originally posted by sljiva Yeah, electronic music is just a music that has a soul. That's an awesome definition. And how do you exactly can tell when someone makes a piece with soul in it and when there's no soul?

experimenting under a technical and scientific aspect: no soul

and that was what they were initially doing...

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I meant genre in the Oxford dictionary way. Not in a classical distinction way. And true, its a determination of sub-genres in classical, just the same as calling electronic music a genre and then things like trance or techno or house sub-genres.

It's not really "sub-genres of classical," though. Someone could just as easily compose a "concerto" or "sonata" for electric guitar, TB-303, and drum machine, and in classical terms it would fall under the genre of "concerto" or "sonata." In classical terms, the formal categories are the genres. Ultimately the sound of a work is not the decisive characteristic.

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Originally posted by trancepeter experimenting under a technical and scientific aspect: no soul and that was what they were initially doing...

So for you every experimental band that makes electronic music is not really making electronic music? Coil, Pan Sonic and Autechre all make what? Rock music?

Like there isn't any soul or passion behind experimentation.

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Originally posted by sljiva So for you every experimental band that makes electronic music is not really making electronic music? Coil, Pan Sonic and Autechre all make what? Rock music?

do they work in laboratories? no...

You're a waste of time.

Well I succesfuly made this thread off-topic... My work is done here!

It was a nice excursion IMO, other than the stupid bit about "experimental music has no soul."