Kenneth,
I'm wondering if maybe you're picking out the audio artifact that is a result of the internal warping engine within Ableton, because, similarly to the music you receive, I've been quite able to pick out DJ sets that are done in Ableton. The algorithm isn't exactly as excellently engineered as others available, but it definitely makes a difference in the tonality and smoothness of the audio. For the most part, all audio samples in ableton get warped to some extent.. so I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.

P.S. your mix from the Vital Radio show guest-slot episode 036 was delicious

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I am guessing if there is a quality issue it has to do with the resolution of the code but I can't comment since I have never used it.

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IMO honestly Abletons sound has nothing to do with its warping engine, (unless you are of course stretching stuff, but Abletons time stretching blows all other DAWs out of the water.) Ableton just has a simpler, more efficient, thus inferior mixdown algorithm (the way it SUMS audio in the master channel) when compared to other DAWs. The reason it has this is because it is meant for LIVE performance, which requires extreme efficiency and CPU budgeting (things like streaming audio files directly from your hard drive instead of commiting them to CPU and the dumbed-down GUI are all purposely done to keep Ableton running at optimal performance in a LIVE setting.)

The work around for this is to mixdown tracks written in Ableton in another program. I rewire Ableton into Logic and I am able to get that liquidy Logic sound while still reaping the benefits of the fast workflow of Ableton for my audio stuff. MIDI and effects processing is all done in Logic.

Someone mentioned that NIN YearZero was written entirely in Ableton, while this is true, I'm almost certain it was mixed down in Protools or mixing desk.

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Last edited by Blake_Jarrell on Mar-02-2009 at 03:28

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell Abletons time stretching blows all other DAWs out of the water

No, it doesn't.

Ableton uses "Elastique Efficient v1.x" by zplane. By comparison, Reaper (a $50 DAW) uses Elastique Pro v2.x, which is a big upgrade. Even FL Studio uses Elastique Pro.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm No, it doesn't. Ableton uses "Elastique Efficient v1.x" by zplane. By comparison, Reaper (a $50 DAW) uses Elastique Pro v2.x, which is a big upgrade.

You know I meant in a popular DAW sense (Logic, Protools, Fruity Loops, etc).

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See what I wrote above. FL uses Elastique Pro. Cubase 4 uses Elastique soloist V2.x, which is comparable to efficient, except it works better on monophonic sounds, not entire mixes. Efficient is the opposite - good on entire mixes, not as good on single channels.

Either way, quality increased a lot from 1.x to 2.x, from my experience. I would argue that Ableton is actually behind the 8 ball...

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm See what I wrote above. FL uses Elastique Pro. Cubase 4 uses Elastique soloist V2.x, which is comparable to efficient, except it works better on monophonic sounds, not entire mixes. Efficient is the opposite - good on entire mixes, not as good on single channels.

are these newer versions of elastique much more CPU intensive?

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quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell are these newer versions of elastique much more CPU intensive?

From memory, they have legacy support. Ie, if you buy 2.x, you also have 1.x. The same goes if you buy Elastique Pro, what you are really buying is the whole bundle - hence you get to chose between pro, efficient or soloist on a per-channel basis.

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell IMO honestly Abletons sound has nothing to do with its warping engine, (unless you are of course stretching stuff, but Abletons time stretching blows all other DAWs out of the water.) Ableton just has a simpler, more efficient, thus inferior mixdown algorithm (the way it SUMS audio in the master channel) when compared to other DAWs. The reason it has this is because it is meant for LIVE performance, which requires extreme efficiency and CPU budgeting (things like streaming audio files directly from your hard drive instead of commiting them to CPU and the dumbed-down GUI are all purposely done to keep Ableton running at optimal performance in a LIVE setting.) The work around for this is to mixdown tracks written in Ableton in another program. I rewire Ableton into Logic and I am able to get that liquidy Logic sound while still reaping the benefits of the fast workflow of Ableton for my audio stuff. MIDI and effects processing is all done in Logic. Someone mentioned that NIN YearZero was written entirely in Ableton, while this is true, I'm almost certain it was mixed down in Protools or mixing desk.

Whole post is patently rididulous. There have been comparisons done between ableton and logic and the result was that they output (for all intents and purposes) identical files.

And WHAT are you talking about commiting files to your CPU? All DAWs (including pro tools and logic) use DFD streaming of audio files, this certainly doesn't affect audio quality. And what does having a "dumbed down" gui have to do with audio quality?

Incidentally echo, the new ableton will have elastique pro and various other enhancements to the warping engine.

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Actually, I thought of another couple of things that could be giving ableton a distinct (although not neccesarily bad) sound.

Fixed pan laws
Fixed fader curves
Clipping behaviour (maybe clips are handled better by logic?)
Dither (or lack thereof) (included as of version 6)
lack of crossfades in arrangement view (fixed in version 8)
Inferior inbuilt effects

Any one of these things might be handled differently by other DAWs and that might be having an effect. But based on what kenneth was saying, I believe that the harsh sound he's talking about is probably coming from people being incompetant at warping.

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quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Whole post is patently rididulous. There have been comparisons done between ableton and logic and the result was that they output (for all intents and purposes) identical files.

I read Tarekith's comparison but hes only mixing down 3 audio loops, like you say in your later post, it doesnt take into account:

Fixed pan laws
Fixed fader curves
Clipping behaviour (maybe clips are handled better by logic?)
Dither (or lack thereof) (included as of version 6)
lack of crossfades in arrangement view (fixed in version 8)
Inferior inbuilt effects

and most importantly how each program handles the processing of effects, even when using identical plug ins.

so its not really showing the whole story, even though it is very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips And WHAT are you talking about commiting files to your CPU? All DAWs (including pro tools and logic) use DFD streaming of audio files, this certainly doesn't affect audio quality. And what does having a "dumbed down" gui have to do with audio quality?

I was explaining that Ableton is optimized for Live situations, thus has features that are more efficient and could be the reason why the mixdown may suffer. whats so hard to understand about that?

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