quote:

Originally posted by nefardec that assumes that the changes are physical. what are ideas made of? ultimately if all ideas are matter, then all matter is an idea, so what gives you the idea that it matters?

There's actually a specific word for that particular brand of flawed logic. I wish I could remember what it was.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec again, how are you so certain of this? from where have you gleaned this secret knowledge? this is the murky foundation of all physical science

It's pure logic. An idea only exists in the mind of a human. A human stores ideas in their brain, which is made up of matter.

If humans did not exist, matter would still be able exist without human ideas to support it.

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Last edited by Domesticated on Mar-31-2009 at 06:39

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated There's actually a specific word for that particular brand of flawed logic. I wish I could remember what it was.

it's called 1 = 1

or adam = nefardec

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec that assumes that the changes are physical. what are ideas made of? ultimately if all ideas are matter, then all matter is an idea, so what gives you the idea that it matters?

Ultimately, if all dogs have four legs, then all creatures with four legs are dogs.

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quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Ultimately, if all dogs have four legs, then all creatures with four legs are dogs.

the flaw in your arguments is assuming that matter and ideas are inherently different, of which you have no proof. my personal belief is that there is no difference, and so in that case, they are interchangable.

you have your personal beliefs. whatever tickles your fancy.

Interesting discussion, and a bit of a struggle between the simplicity or seeming simplicity of the original post and the answers which ranged from sort of simple to philosophical and metaphysical, some almost so deep as to almost loose focus on the question.
My favourite quote: perception changes everything. You can discuss and or debate this point until it disolves into meaninglessnes. But you asked a simple question , so here is maybe a sort of simple conclusion or at least here is one guys perspective but ultimately you are seeking input and if you are lucky one person in this thread will say something maybe if even only one sentence that give you a personal epiphany or enlightenment to your progression.I will apologize now as I said 'simple' but I have a way of being long winded so I hope someone cares to finish reading hehe.

My take is this; Many people evolve and/or change in life. You have done one of those obviously only you know which. Either you simply learned more and glean more from what you experience becuase of it, or maybe you spiritually awakened and actually 'care' where you didn't care much for details of things before.
Here is a simple thought experiment from my own personal experience with a friend:
I know a guy who was always sort of a computer geek and when we were young used to draw so I he had an appreciation for art but never showed interest in music at all. Older , he reached a point in his life where he had a hard spot. He retreated from friends and everyone and to express himself just focused on music. He got all the good software and just started experimenting with no musical training, completely self taught and started making songs. He shared some early stuff with me and it was surprisingly good. I appreciated this fact as I was exposed to music and played drums since I was 3 yrs old. Then more things happened, I will get to that in a moment. But lets say you heard a song he made one day and its basic trance/house type stuff still good knowing its from someone teaching themselves but you wouldnt be likely to appreciate any small nuances. You hear a childs voice , a young girl , probably 5-6 saying;
"look at me. Forhead, eyebrows, eyes , nose... ears, cheeks, mouth , neck , hair... close your eyes...now try to recreat my face in your mind.... how much of me do you remember ? what did you forget? ..... why did you forget it? Look at me , hold my dreams... close your eyes, can you imagine yourself becoming me? Looking around in different directions? Different smells? Can you imagine yourself becoming me? Open your eyes.... then the beat really drops in and its something you may expect at a club to dance to but afterward you might not remember much in fact you probably wouldnt remember the samples in it.
Then lets say sometime afterward you find out that your friend who wrote this song, wrote is in memory of his sister's 5 or 6 yr old daughter who died in a car accident after he visited the family and the funeral. Imagine listening to that very same song much later knowing that the voice samples were old recordings of that girl who died as I did. My perception changed forever. Now hearing that song in my mind is one of the most brilliant songs I ever heard because not only do I appreciate every last detail he added knowing the very personal details it has a story , it has meaning. Maybe something made you give meaning to music. Maybe now you CARE. Caring makes all the difference in the world in anyone's perception of anything I think. So maybe don't worry so much about hearing better or worse or learning, maybe its more about caring or not. If you care about something you will always see things that few others can , only those who care about the same thing , in the same way.

So ya, like many others in this post so far, theres my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec again, how are you so certain of this?

Because biological and medical science can show a thought on a screen. Of course, you can invent any number of ornate hypothetical frames to fit around any fact but Occam's Razor prompts me to discard them all equally unless they come with more recommendation than a flawed metaphor.

Although you're still welcome to take the aforementioned scalpel test. Slice a slab of grey matter out and see how your soul's training stands up.

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Last edited by SYSTEM-J on Mar-31-2009 at 14:02

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec my original point was not to say that matter requires ideas, but that matter IS ideas.

that is an interesting take on reality, to say the least.

are you, by any chance, an idealist / logical positivist? do you perhaps believe that an entity cannot exist objectively in the sense that its existence does not depend on anyone's ideas / perceptions? esse est percipi ? do you believe in a world independent of our knowledge, or do you think the world we know is created by our ideas? i may be wrong but your posts make you come off as an avid anti-realist.

also, this:

quote:

if all ideas are matter,

in no way implies (nor even implicates) this:

quote:

then all matter is an idea

even if the former happens to be true.

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quote:

Originally posted by Noisician do you believe in a world independent of our knowledge, or do you think the world we know is created by our ideas? i may be wrong but your posts make you come off as an avid anti-realist.

I believe that, regardless if it is approached from material science or from spiritual pursuits, the ultimate destiny of mankind is to live within his mind.

i want to say that I am not at all against material science. I think that it's just but one way to approach reality, however. Material science has recently begun to approach the idea through virtual reality, quantum physics, etc, and this is really exciting. We're going to make ourselves into god.

I completely understand what you are seeing as a logical fallacy, if they were indeed different things to begin with, but if they are the same thing, it's like a=b, so b=a, which is completely true.

what i am NOT saying is something like, if all A's are B's, then all B's are A's. I know I worded it the same way, but again my position is firstly, that A=B, so you could substitute any A, with a B in that conditional statement.


@SYSTEM-J, re: Occam's Razor:
I think Occam's Razor in its strictest sense would actually support an idea such as 'man came from an ear of corn', as opposed to the bewildering combined complexity of particle physics, quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, electromagnetism, theoretical physics, etc.

if anything, occam's razor has prevented science from advancing. (the geocentric universe is a much simpler concept than the heliocentric universe, etc.)

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Although you're still welcome to take the aforementioned scalpel test. Slice a slab of grey matter out and see how your soul's training stands up.

I don't need to do this, since I will die anyways. My training has only just begun. But do you mean to tell me that my father, who had a stroke, was any less conscious or had any less identity or soul, even with only half of his brain in working order? I don't think so. The brain is a tool for spiritual progress as well as scientific inquiry, and I would prefer to use it to its maximum potential.

Last edited by nefardec on Mar-31-2009 at 18:44

i can't bother to read all of the long posts, but i hope we are not talking about actual hearing. It is a proven fact that after the age of 25, there are many frequencies people can no longer hear as opposed to when they were teenagers.

It deteriorates naturally after that.

Wouldn't your theory have anything to do with actually learning to dj/produce vs just listening? You are teaching yourself to pick up these things vs naturally doing so due to experience.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Ideas require matter to exist.

That is one of many perspectives, none of which can be "proven." Being a scientist, I tend to side with your perspective. However, having a brother who studied philosophy, I found myself often too quick to jump on the material bandwagon when explaining phenomena. There are numerous philosophies that attempt to explain the nature of ideas, in a non-material sense, and many of these explanations are quite valid.

I believe you and nefardec are at opposite ends of the spectrum. If there is one thing I have learned in life, it is that the middle way is usually the right one.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle In this case musical awareness, definitely. Most people will generally just hear melody and vocals in a track, they dont notice the snare drum, the hi hat pattern, the effects. But they are there, and they would sense something was wrong if it wasnt, but they are not aware of it. So yeah if you focus on what you are listening too, the more you are able to appreciate it, and sense of it. And thats also why "everyone" hates EDM, they only hear the 4/4 kick.

Interesting, I wonder what the 'cheese' haters hear in 'cheese' (Damn I hate the word and now I'm using it though...).
I had some more thoughts today. I have been listening EDM for about 20 years now. EDM changed during these years, which makes it a bit difficult to judge if my brain really changed regarding to listening to music. My taste changed for sure, but the music did change a lot too, or probably even more. Also when taste changes this doesn't mean something got less. It probably will increase resulting in liking more.
Therefor when I focus on other tracks I used to listen back then, like U2, Simple Minds, Pet Shop Boys, A-Ha and I listen to nowadays not trance, I guess I'm not listening differently. My hearing quality IMO didn't change.

So I guess 'awareness' is something which can change.
And then you can wonder whether haters are people who are not aware, or very aware.......

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