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Originally posted by Paradox Lost Agreed, though the contextual elements involved here are somewhat different. I really would prefer to not get too involved in this (though it may be too late at this point), but the point of actually bringing material is undoubtedly geared towards sharing good music with like-minded individuals; so in that regard, of course you're not going to bring along content you find unpleasant. However, using that same example, I would very much be inclined to mention a release of notable status (for one reason or another) that I found myself not liking for the purposes of generating discussion due to the significant nature of the release. So while my ultimate intent in being present with that group is not to discuss music I don't like, there's nothing wrong with mentioning it due to underlying purpose of that group sustaining that type of discussion. And that 'sustained discussion'- that dynamic of people getting together, sitting around and talking about electronic music- is, in a very real capacity, reflected here. I highly doubt anyone is here to involve themselves in discussions regarding what they don't like, but they certainly come up from time to time, and wind up creating interesting discussions in their own right. Completely agreed. And very much in agreement with you here, as well. However, I don't feel that negative remarks that are part and parcel of simply stirring up discussion from time to time are inherently incompatible with fostering these ends.

I think you have an interesting take on why this type of thread exists online. On those grounds and reasoning I think the existence of a negatively critical thread about a piece of music can have a place in a healthy music appreciation culture. So I agree with your reasoning there. But I don't know if this particular thread or other threads follow that idea of discussing a piece of music that is already very successful, to create a new critical dialogue or new examination of the music. So while your view is reasonable, I don't think that reasoning was employed here by the OP, or many other threads that discuss new music in a premptively negative manner. This track hasn't even seen any sort of success yet, and is still newly released.

That said, I acknowledge that on internet my ideas on this topic are romantic or idealistic, even though they strongly stem from what is real to me.

And to be clear, my ideals are not about talking up hyping up every piece of music that comes out and saying "I said damn, this is amazing", no not at all. Ideally, it is about finding music that is amazing, and then sharing that piece of music with everyone else you communicate with about music. And we did that, all we would be hearing is amazing music and evolving postively. While letting the weak music to sink to the bottom where it belongs, naturally.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Ideally, it is about finding music that is amazing, and then sharing that piece of music with everyone else you communicate with about music. And we did that, all we would be hearing is amazing music and evolving postively. While letting the weak music to sink to the bottom where it belongs, naturally.

In spirit, I'm very much with you on just about everything you say.

Honestly, however, I think we would ultimately be doing ourselves a disservice by simply refusing to acknowledge poor quality music, and let it sink to the bottom, as you mentioned. For example, let's say an established artist puts together an artist album consisting of material that deviates significantly from his existing style (not trying to draw parallel's with Howell's most recent release, I'm just using this to give some background). Suppose you feel that album ends in complete disaster; I think it's worthwhile to remark upon this in a negative regard, as it enables us to adopt a broader contextual understanding of artist and perhaps even the musical/cultural landscape in which their music exists (for those who agree with your assessments, at least, and those who don't can certainly make for some interesting, prosperous conversation).

We could always just let slip through the cracks and await more competent material to be churned out on their end, but if nothing else, discussing why we don't like something can often serve to provide some retrospective meaning. 'Oh, remember ______, and his album ______? It was some pretty ambitious, but rather awful experimental branching out, though it was at a time in which producing _______ was the hot thing to do. His new album is much better, imo."

As for this thread being oriented towards generating healthy discussion regarding Howell's and his discography, yeah, perhaps it's got nothing to do with that; however, it really doesn't seem terribly off the mark to me.

"Hey, check out the latest from Howell's. I think it's terrible, and he should stick to what he knows best."

Yeah, it's a little more abrasive then that, and I know you disagree completely with saying Howell's should stick to a certain range of sound/style (and with the assumption that he ever did in the first place), but it seems that all the fundamental elements of legitimate discussion are there (though not quite in that order ).

Last edited by Paradox Lost on May-02-2009 at 09:35

Holy walls of text Batman.

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost In spirit, I'm very much with you on just about everything you say. Honestly, however, I think we would ultimately be doing ourselves a disservice by simply refusing to acknowledge poor quality music, and let it sink to the bottom, as you mentioned. For example, let's say an established artist puts together an artist album consisting of material that deviates significantly from his existing style (not trying to draw parallel's with Howell's most recent release, I'm just using this to give some background). Suppose that album ends in complete disaster; I think it's worthwhile to remark upon this in a negative regard, as it enables us to adopt a broader contextual understanding of artist and perhaps even the musical/cultural landscape in which their music exists. We could always just let slip through the cracks and await more competent material to be churned out on their end, but if nothing else, discussing why we don't like something can often serve to provide some retrospective understanding. 'Oh, remember ______, and his album ______? It was some pretty ambitious, but rather awful experimental branching out, though it was at a time in which producing _______ was the hot thing to do. His new album is much better, imo." As for this thread being oriented towards generating healthy discussion regarding Howell's and his discography, yeah, perhaps it's got nothing to do with that; however, it really doesn't seem terribly off the mark to me. "Hey, check out the latest from Howell's. I think it's terrible, and he should stick to what he knows best." Yeah, it's a little more abrasive then that, and I know you disagree completely with saying Howell's should stick to a certain range of sound/style (and with the assumption that he ever did in the first place), but it seems that all the fundamental elements of legitimate discussion are there.

I think you make a lot of good points. And there might be some benefits to be had by pointing out new music, that is awful alongside the music that is great. Maybe to help contrast the great from the awful like you said. And that does happen in the real life music appreciation. However, i'll add one more idea to my idealistic views (fully acknowledged)...due to the vastness of the internet, the speedy and abundant access of information, there should be no shortage of good music being found and shared, to the point that there really is no room or time to discuss terrible music. This lack of time to discuss poor music would be the natural and evolutionary critique of that poor music.

Also because of the focus on great music, there will be a natural survival of the fittest. For example the culture of sharing music has so much good music, that a battle for #5,390 place is Sebastien Tellier - La Ritournelle against Radiohead - Street Spirit (Fade Out), instead of the battle for #5,390 being Kate Perry - I Kissed a Girl vs Britney Spears - Womanizer. You follow me? So if we focused on sharing purely good pieces of music, we will have found a lot more great music with this focus, to the point that there are great pieces of music far down the ladder that we can safely forget about, yet they are brilliant pieces of music. With that said, at the end of the day, I can't say your argument is wrong, but I do wish what im saying was true of the culture here.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

Last edited by Kismet7 on May-02-2009 at 11:00

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Originally posted by Kismet7 I think you make a lot of good points. And there might be some benefits to be had by pointing out new music, that is awful alongside the music that is great.

So people really like what you and I might consider awful.

Has that not occured to you?

Case in point, the responses in this thread.

Yet again, Internet Forum: 1, Kismet7: 0

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 ...due to the vastness of the internet, the speedy and abundant access of information, there should be no shortage of good music being found and shared, to the point that there really is no room or time to discuss terrible music. This lack of time to discuss poor music would be the natural and evolutionary critique of that poor music.

Perhaps, but even in this idealized state, I'm thoroughly confident that prominent releases- both good and bad- will always manage to become integrated into musical discussions, regardless as to whether or not we're up to our necks in good music (and I'm happy to say that in my personal life, I am).

When Digweed releases Transitions 5, or when Sasha releases his next single to emFire, we're definitely going to see more than a few discussions pop up, and inevitable negative responses; which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Also because of the focus on great music, there will be a natural survival of the fittest. For example the culture of sharing music has so much good music, that a battle for #5,390 place is Sebastien Tellier - La Ritournelle against Radiohead - Street Spirit (Fade Out), instead of the battle for #5,390 being Kate Perry - I Kissed a Girl vs Britney Spears - Womanizer. You follow me? So if we focused on sharing purely good pieces of music, there would be a natural process of finding which one is better and why, and we will have found a lot more great music with this focus, to the point that there are great pieces of music far down the ladder that we can safely forget about, yet they are brilliant pieces of music. With that said, at the end of the day, I can't say your argument is wrong, but I do wish what im saying was true of the culture here.

Yeah, I see what you're saying with that, but I still prefer to enjoy a strong sense of context regarding artists I've been following for years, and that often involves a discussion of lesser quality releases. More broadly, this can also tie closely into an examination of precisely what is happening in terms of trends and developments in the world of electronic music in general.

Ultimately, though, I place far more emphasis upon sharing/discussing good music than anything else, and I think most other people here do, too; so things aren't as glum as they may seem to you.


EDIT: By the way, I feel it necessary to clarify that although I've been using 'good' and 'bad' in very definitive senses, in no way do I mean to suggest that there is some consensus on these matters. I guess you could prefix my use of those words with the phrase 'that you/people find...'.

I've never seen Kismet start a thread about a release. Never. If you'd spend as much effort in finding or making good music as you do in trolling, maybe you would not appear as ridiculous with your 2000+ words posts. Just sayin'.

Internet forum: 2. Kismet7: 0.

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The party to end all parties (part one with Layo & Bushwacka!) (part two with Laurent Garnier)

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Originally posted by Clovis So people really like what you and I might consider awful. Has that not occured to you? Case in point, the responses in this thread. Yet again, Internet Forum: 1, Kismet7: 0

Exactly. For instance, you can't dictate to an ATB fan (and there are some here) that his music is horrible (though you can try )...it will simply be written off and you'll be asked to move on to the next thread. Suffice to say, expecting utopia to take root on the Internet is not too dissimilar from expecting a utopia in the real world.

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost Perhaps, but even in this idealized state, I'm thoroughly confident that prominent releases- both good and bad- will always manage to become integrated into musical discussions, regardless as to whether or not we're up to our necks in good music (and I'm happy to say that in my personal life, I am). When Digweed releases Transitions 5, or when Sasha releases his next single to emFire, we're definitely going to see more than a few discussions pop up, and inevitable negative responses; which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, I see what you're saying with that, but I still prefer to enjoy a strong sense of context regarding artists I've been following for years, and that often involves a discussion of lesser quality releases. More broadly, this can also tie closely into an examination of precisely what is happening in terms of trends and developments in the world of electronic music in general. Ultimately, though, I place far more emphasis upon sharing/discussing good music than anything else, and I think most other people here do, too; so things aren't as glum as they may seem to you. EDIT: By the way, I feel it necessary to clarify that although I've been using 'good' and 'bad' in very definitive senses, in no way do I mean to suggest that there is some consensus on these matters. I guess you could prefix my use of those words with the phrase 'that you/people find...'.

I think we took the discussion all it could go, and I can say I am more open minded towards the negative reviews, though i'll maintain my romantic beliefs of what an ideal music appreciation culture could be. cheers

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

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Originally posted by ponsshin I've never seen Kismet start a thread about a release. Never. If you'd spend as much effort in finding or making good music as you do in trolling, maybe you would not appear as ridiculous with your 2000+ words posts. Just sayin'. Internet forum: 2. Kismet7: 0.

You guys are keeping score?

In that case its more like Kismet7 : 8 Internet Forum : 0

Draws : 1



That said, Paradox Lost did a good job to get his views accross with great rationale and reasoning. Well much of my argument is based on ideals, although with realistic grounds.

Outcasts FTW.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

Oh my god you're such a good socialist

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The party to end all parties (part one with Layo & Bushwacka!) (part two with Laurent Garnier)