quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Police don't use torture, because, first, it's illegal. Second, it's ineffective. If I am being tortured, I will confess to anything you want me to. Is it no wonder we got so much bogus "intelligence" on Iraq being in league with Al-Qaeda? People told us that because they were being tortured.

Are you seriously blaming the cooked intelligence about Iraq on terrorist confessions that were only obtained through torture? First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if I found out tomorrow that they didn't even actually QUESTION a member of Al-Queda about Iraq. The Bush administration was dishonest at the best of times.

More to the point, I'll bet that information was being fed to the US by AQ prisoners before any form of torture was enacted. I'm sure that Al-Queda is intelligent enough to know that the US is weaker if they spread their forces. Not only that, that ANYWHERE the USA attacked would be bad for their Public Relations with other nations. Not only THAT, but that an attack on Iraq would help draw more poor, angry men from the Middle East to their cause because the US would be viewed as simply attacking Muslim nations. And on TOP of all those things, that they knew it would be EASY to convince Bush Jr. to start a war and make it all happen.

quote:

Your disregard for the law does not excuse our government violating it.

No one's excusing them. Not ONCE have I said I agree that torture should be used. But let's be realistic here. All governments are corrupt and do things that are illegal, the best governments are just better at covering it up. And I'm certain that somewhere in a dark, damp cell. An American military interrogator is using SOME form of torture to obtain information. To simply declare that it isn't happening because "That politician said it stopped and the newspaper printed the story, so it's official!" is pure fantasy.

To accept anything a politician SAYS (Like "We no longer torture" or "I will not raise taxes") at face value is incredibly foolish from my perspective.

___________________
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Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam Are you seriously blaming the cooked intelligence about Iraq on terrorist confessions that were only obtained through torture? First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if I found out tomorrow that they didn't even actually QUESTION a member of Al-Queda about Iraq. The Bush administration was dishonest at the best of times.

We'v tortured or had tortured hundreds of people, a lot of whom have been released! Are you telling me not one of them is going to say anything just to make it stop? Of course they were questioned on Iraq. A special unit in the Pentagon was set up specifically to come up with "evidence" of an Iraq/Al-Qaeda link.

quote:

More to the point, I'll bet that information was being fed to the US by AQ prisoners before any form of torture was enacted. I'm sure that Al-Queda is intelligent enough to know that the US is weaker if they spread their forces. Not only that, that ANYWHERE the USA attacked would be bad for their Public Relations with other nations. Not only THAT, but that an attack on Iraq would help draw more poor, angry men from the Middle East to their cause because the US would be viewed as simply attacking Muslim nations. And on TOP of all those things, that they knew it would be EASY to convince Bush Jr. to start a war and make it all happen.

You bet? I'm not betting on anything. I'm looking for facts. Not hunches and suspicions. No offense, but I need proof.

quote:

No one's excusing them. Not ONCE have I said I agree that torture should be used. But let's be realistic here. All governments are corrupt and do things that are illegal, the best governments are just better at covering it up. And I'm certain that somewhere in a dark, damp cell. An American military interrogator is using SOME form of torture to obtain information. To simply declare that it isn't happening because "That politician said it stopped and the newspaper printed the story, so it's official!" is pure fantasy.

Again, you are certain based on what? A hunch? An assumption? We'r going into conspiracy theory territory here. We KNOW Bush's administration authorized torture. We also KNOW the Bush administration halted it in 2006. We KNOW the Obama administration has denounced torture and the law dictates adherence to the Geneva Convention and US Army Field Manual. You accuse the Obama administration is essentially breaking the law. All I'm asking you is, prove it, just as if we are in a court of law. Until then, I really can't take you seriously here.

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To accept anything a politician SAYS (Like "We no longer torture" or "I will not raise taxes") at face value is incredibly foolish from my perspective.

Again, if you are accusing the Obama administration is breaking the law by authorizing torture, you must prove it. Otherwise, we can't go any further here in this discussion..

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you are substituting "hope" with knowledge. please stop doing that. thats how we ended up with a Community Organizer-in-Chief...who btw has endorsed, continued, and enhanced everything you hate Bush for.

Wrong. Obama overturned the repeal of embryonic stem cell research. While that may have nothing to do with National security or the topic at hand, I just find it retarded that you would imply that Obama's policies are the exact same as Bush's.

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Originally posted by Zharen While that may have nothing to do with National security or the topic at hand,

this

now stfu

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Originally posted by Q5echo thats how we ended up with a Community Organizer-in-Chief...who btw has endorsed, continued, and enhanced everything you hate Bush for.

I wouldn't say "everything", but I agree that unfortunately Obama has endorsed many of his predecessor's past policies pertaining to warrantless surveillance and torture.

The fact that another president want to retain the same policies that his predecessor pushed forth does not entail those policies to be any more legal, however. It simply means the new guy likes the increased amount of power he was given. Unfortunately this is historically true for most historical leaders and presidents.

And I guess it makes me all the more a purity troll for believing it was wrong and illegal no matter who is in power. Just out of curiousity, though, I'm wondering how you feel about a Democrat holding the same amount of power as Bush does, especially in regards to warrantless surveillance?

quote:

define reasonable? and what freedoms have we laid at the alter un-reasonable security?

I know we've discussed this before. Surely you remember a conversation or two about civil liberties, the right to privacy, etc. regarding warrantless surveillance?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Zharen Wrong. Obama overturned the repeal of government sponsored embryonic stem cell research...

Fixed.