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believe you misstep in lumping aesthetic beauty with narcissism

in some ways yes i agree with you. But aesthetics means to be zealous toward the beautiful yes, which is a form of devotion towards that ideal. And while narcissism rests upon the idea that people in someway whether, one person or many, are in fact pre occupied with the self in either regard. And, for the purposes of this narcissistic complacency I argue the idea, that humans seem to be falling towards this in a more express worthy fashion. And, i would go further to say that this is humanity wide.

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but still there exists some very simple, generalised truths; the modern notion of beauty is often or expressly not a call-back to the classical idealism of reproductive beauty, yes

True, it would definitely give the appearance that that is in fact the case but as I believe and i think you would agree from a psychological point of view its stems ultimately from a primitive foundation. Although, we could argue that this primitive foundation has dwindled almost down to nothing.

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As inherently social beings, heirarchy likely comes to us (literally) as naturally as violence. There is absolutely no reason to believe this will ever change. Pride, I would say, is the result of an effective self-image. It's vanity and "beauty" and egoism at its height, but more interesting still, is that pride can be an utter fabrication

Exactly and this is where pride becomes clearly associated with beauty and vanity inter-twined with narcissism as an invariantly associated construct. what do you mean when you state pride is an utter fabrication. Is this that pride lends itself to its primitive roots?

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The bitter part of this dynamic is that once something becomes of use, it ceases to be beautiful

Is this really the case? or like you suggest being subjective in nature means that it can never really preclude to be absolute in anyway given the ideal is based upon ideas itself, whether relative or not. But i would agree to say that beauty is itself a transcendental notion subjective to that particular time and place of recognition.

thanks for the reply

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit right.. i eat mcdonalds frequently though and i can't get fat.. what a curse.

Im the same i can eat anything and never put on fat.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I'll bet you think this song is abou-utt youuu, don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don'ttt youuu? Ffffuckkkk youuuuu.

STAR******S, BANANANAA BANANANANA, BANANORA, BANANAORA

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Originally posted by jupiterone STAR******S, BANANANAA BANANANANA, BANANORA, BANANAORA

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Energy_3 in some ways yes i agree with you. But aesthetics means to be zealous toward the beautiful yes, which is a form of devotion towards that ideal. And while narcissism rests upon the idea that people in someway whether, one person or many, are in fact pre occupied with the self in either regard. And, for the purposes of this narcissistic complacency I argue the idea, that humans seem to be falling towards this in a more express worthy fashion. And, i would go further to say that this is humanity wide. True, it would definitely give the appearance that that is in fact the case but as I believe and i think you would agree from a psychological point of view its stems ultimately from a primitive foundation. Although, we could argue that this primitive foundation has dwindled almost down to nothing.

I think you are assuming that human beings were once more primitive, that perhaps the world was at one point more violent, that humans were at one point far more simple than they are anymore. I would argue that, if we are indeed discussing a social phenomenon, the time-frame that would accommodate such a consideration doesn't go back far enough to encapsulate any savage or unassociated beauty that would preclude current humans. In other words, our world is no better nor any worse than it has ever been - it is simply more televised. Although...

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Exactly and this is where pride becomes clearly associated with beauty and vanity inter-twined with narcissism as an invariantly associated construct. what do you mean when you state pride is an utter fabrication. Is this that pride lends itself to its primitive roots?

Generally speaking, pride is a tool in the hands of the determined, and a crutch beneath the arms of the complacent. When I say that pride can be an utter fabrication, I mean just that - it's an illusion. The proudest men are ephemeral apes like the rest of us - in fact, some of the most outwardly proud people I've known have seemed the most fucked up on the inside - the weakest when it comes down to it. But they would never let anybody know this. They're bluffing. But it works.

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Is this really the case? or like you suggest being subjective in nature means that it can never really preclude to be absolute in anyway given the ideal is based upon ideas itself, whether relative or not. But i would agree to say that beauty is itself a transcendental notion subjective to that particular time and place of recognition.

Hah, I said that last line half seriously, but isn't it often true? There's something to be said about seeing beauty anywhere that you look, but so far as things that are innately beautiful or creative or expressive, I think that utility and profiteering and possession are at utter odds with the ideal. But that's not to enmitize things like utility and profit - they are what they are, and too much of either side is going to make things saturated to somebody's displeasure.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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I think you are assuming that human beings were once more primitive, that perhaps the world was at one point more violent, that humans were at one point far more simple than they are anymore

yes and no. I see what your suggesting. Its not so that violence has anything to do with it really, though i agree with you in that it really has just shifted generation to generation and hence become more televised. And, in terms of being primitive as i make mention previously i mean it only as a standpoint to the hierarchy of human ability. But that it has surpassed its general idea, that beauty and/or vanity was once something graceful - such, that we appeared with at amazement - shit now its getting to technical... lol. and of course it has other elements to it as well. but you know what i mean i think!

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I would argue that, if we are indeed discussing a social phenomenon, the time-frame that would accommodate such a consideration doesn't go back far enough to encapsulate any savage or unassociated beauty that would preclude current humans

I agree, which was once something of a beautiful admiration to the beauty itself, this has now become something to which we are displacing in shameful fashion. Although did this really start of any different to how it is now? i think your getting at this point

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Generally speaking, pride is a tool in the hands of the determined, and a crutch beneath the arms of the complacent. When I say that pride can be an utter fabrication, I mean just that - it's an illusion.

a socially constructed tool indeed it is.

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There's something to be said about seeing beauty anywhere that you look, but so far as things that are innately beautiful or creative or expressive, I think that utility and profiteering and possession are at utter odds with the ideal. But that's not to enmitize things like utility and profit - they are what they are, and too much of either side is going to make things saturated to somebody's displeasure

well this is where the mechanics of the ideas, 'vanity' and 'beauty' rest in a modern day society and are thus fueled with by the intention or desire to proclaim that which was good to the eye.

funny its turning into an essay

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Originally posted by Energy_3 I recently thought about the idea of how much society in general rests upon the notion of beauty or vanity as a narcissistic ideal. I'm not arguing that each person upholds this idea willfully, but that the idea rests in mind as a foundation to which our living is spurred. How we as humans go to the extent of beautifying most things, such as food, i mean in a way that we present it before we eat it, or to how we observe ourselves (as we all do i'm sure). I am being very general here as well - particularly, that in all accounts of human behavior a valuable amount of this idea rests at the base of thought towards the outcome of outward creation. Thus, that this idea of beauty extends into all areas of our everday lives through direct (consciously aware) and indirect (unconsciously etc) methods.

You're ugly.

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Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

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Originally posted by Energy_3 I recently thought about the idea of how much society in general rests upon the notion of beauty or vanity as a narcissistic ideal.

Because as egalitarian as some people like to think they are when it comes to judging personal appearance at some point there is a deep connection with the way you look, the way you perceive yourself, your outward sense of self worth is something of a mirror of yourself and how others will perceive you.

You can be a smart and clever as you want, but the fact is that if you look like you crawled out of a dumpster, then its entirely fair to assume that you put yourself there in the first place. As for the cultural differences and perceptions, there's no escaping society so you may as well learn to live with it.

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Originally posted by Spam You're ugly.

butt ugly

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