Since we are on the topic of Tiesto, I have to share what he did the last time I saw him. Regardless of what he has or has not done for music, he seems to be extremely arrogant and full of himself, something I completely despise. About 3 years ago I saw him at a show. In the middle of his set in front of well over a thousand people, he stoops down behind the decks and begins messing with something. Soon after, he emerges with a rolled up poster in his hand. He's got my attention and curiosity going. What could it be?

He unrolls this poster that strecthed as wide as his arms would go and to our delights, it was a giant picture of himself. Disgusted, I thought well maybe at least he'll be throwing it into the crowd for a fan or something. No. He neatly rolls it back up and puts it away. My friends and I left shortly thereafter.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Back to school for all of you You are complete fucking noobs if you think Tiesto did it all first. That crown, without doubt goes to Paul Oakenfold.Not hat I;m much of a fan anymore but there really is no discussion on this. The first DJ to play a stadium gig. The first DJ to play to 100,000+. The first DJ to have a no.1 hit. The first DJ to break the states. The first DJ to remix the big bands such as U2. The first DJ to do a film Score. This list really is endless. For fucks sake, HE brought dance music back from Ibiza to the masses. Without him, Tiesto would be playing hiphop (which might actually happen). In fact Tiesto is probably in to Trance because of Oakenfold's mix tapes. I've been in to dance music for about 15 years, I remember picking up productions from the record store by Tiesto in 1996. Back them his productions were actually quite good and he was pushing the envelope for trance. However what he pukes out now is a shallow and vulgar shadow of his former talents and anyone who has been around long enough or bothers to do some research knows this. He really has turned in to a money hungry pop producer under the rather poor disguise of "trance DJ". Why is no.1 on the DJ polls? Becuase 14 year olds who don;t know any better vote for in the 100's of 1000's, and let's face they're the only people who care about top DJ polls anyway. There is so much evidence out there that his ethics relating to music and other producers work are amongst the lowest in the industry.

Thanks for posting this. I had to run to work and didn't have time to educate. You forgot that Paul was named the World's Most Successful DJ by the Guiness Book of World Records. His "Another World" compilation has sold more copies in the USA than any other dance music CD in history. Also, Tiesto got his first big break thanks to Paul Oakenfold. Since it appears some here need some education, I'm not going to tell you why. Pick yourself up Oakenfold's biography, read it, and then you'll know A LITTLE about 90's dance music.

Some people on here really need to learn to think before speaking. I don't normally get very snappy but nothing bothers me more than people talking about something as if they know so much about it. This magnifies by 10x when we are talking about 90's dance music.

You'll notice I don't go around trotting in production threads like I'm some expert even though I know a lot more than I let on. That's just my style. Keep quiet and carry a big stick.

Just don't be misrepresenting the history and roots of dance music. (Which Tiesto didn't have $hit to do with; he was a product of everybody elses blood sweat and tears.)

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Thanks for posting this. I had to run to work and didn't have time to educate. You forgot that Paul was named the World's Most Successful DJ by the Guiness Book of World Records. His "Another World" compilation has sold more copies in the USA than any other dance music CD in history. Also, Tiesto got his first big break thanks to Paul Oakenfold. Since it appears some here need some education, I'm not going to tell you why. Pick yourself up Oakenfold's biography, read it, and then you'll know A LITTLE about 90's dance music. Some people on here really need to learn to think before speaking. I don't normally get very snappy but nothing bothers me more than people talking about something as if they know so much about it. This magnifies by 10x when we are talking about 90's dance music. You'll notice I don't go around trotting in production threads like I'm some expert even though I know a lot more than I let on. That's just my style. Keep quiet and carry a big stick. Just don't be misrepresenting the history and roots of dance music. (Which Tiesto didn't have $hit to do with; he was a product of everybody elses blood sweat and tears.)

Do you respect Oakenfold more than Tiesto?

Do you think Oakenfold is less arrogant? More passionate about the music than Tiesto? Less of a commercial sell-out?

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Originally posted by G-Con Do you respect Oakenfold more than Tiesto? Do you think Oakenfold is less arrogant? More passionate about the music than Tiesto? Less of a commercial sell-out?

Question #1 - Yes - You didn't ask why, but I'll tell you. Oakenfold is the original, Tiesto is his shadow. Oakenfold doesn't steal others tracks, Tiesto does. (Do we see a trend here) - They've both gone into commercial music business, but Tiesto still continues with his old ways, and Oakenfold does not. I don't see how you could answer this question any differently.

Question #2 - Yes to the first question Paul is not arrogant. I've had the pleasure to talk with him a few times on the phone regarding a business proposal and he was beyond respectful and not only cared about the business proposal but wanted to know what I did for a living and said he respected what I do very much. I've had the pleasure to chat with him at a few gigs as well, and as long as he isn't busy he'll treat you like his best friend. He is an incredibly nice person, which surprised me because prior to meeting him I read online that he was arrogant, but I have to say it's been the complete opposite every time we have talked.

Question #2 - (Second Question) - "Passion" is somewhat of a tough term to define here. Nobody will ever out work Paul Oakenfold. He works every day of his life, however he is a business man first, a business man second, and a business man third. I've been fortunate enough to learn a lot about him (way more than I should probably know) and he has chased the dollar his entire life. Some of the things his wife (now ex-wife) told me were unbelievable. I'm going to say Tiesto is more passionate about the music. I've watched some youtubes of him and you can just see the love in his eyes for dance music. The video of him a while back that showed him recording his last release is passion in its purest form. Oakenfold would NEVER do something like that.

Question #3 - "Sell out" is again a loose term, but I think they are both equally chasing the dollar at this point and time. In the past, no, but today, yes.

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Question #1 - Yes - You didn't ask why, but I'll tell you. Oakenfold is the original, Tiesto is his shadow. Oakenfold doesn't steal others tracks, Tiesto does. (Do we see a trend here) - They've both gone into commercial music business, but Tiesto still continues with his old ways, and Oakenfold does not. I don't see how you could answer this question any differently. Question #2 - Yes to the first question Paul is not arrogant. I've had the pleasure to talk with him a few times on the phone regarding a business proposal and he was beyond respectful and not only cared about the business proposal but wanted to know what I did for a living and said he respected what I do very much. I've had the pleasure to chat with him at a few gigs as well, and as long as he isn't busy he'll treat you like his best friend. He is an incredibly nice person, which surprised me because prior to meeting him I read online that he was arrogant, but I have to say it's been the complete opposite every time we have talked. Question #2 - (Second Question) - "Passion" is somewhat of a tough term to define here. Nobody will ever out work Paul Oakenfold. He works every day of his life, however he is a business man first, a business man second, and a business man third. I've been fortunate enough to learn a lot about him (way more than I should probably know) and he has chased the dollar his entire life. Some of the things his wife (now ex-wife) told me were unbelievable. I'm going to say Tiesto is more passionate about the music. I've watched some youtubes of him and you can just see the love in his eyes for dance music. The video of him a while back that showed him recording his last release is passion in its purest form. Oakenfold would NEVER do something like that. Question #3 - "Sell out" is again a loose term, but I think they are both equally chasing the dollar at this point and time. In the past, no, but today, yes.

Personally I put them both about the same in all respects.

I don't see how Paul's career coming before Tiesto means anything. Yes, he did give Tiesto his first big break but if he hadn't, chances are someone else would. Its not like Tiesto has been riding on the success of Oakenfold through his career.

Okay, you say Paul isn't arrogant, you've met him so fair enough. He certainly comes across as arrogant on stage. I've seen him three times and everytime he looked like he didn't give a shit, half the time he just spoke to someone with his back to the crowd. Maybe in person, he is great but he doesn't always give the paying public the respect THEY deserve. As mentioned in your next post, Tiesto is largely faultless in this area. I've seen him 6 times, everytime, like you say, his enthusiasm and passion is clear to see (even if he can be a cheesy idiot with some of the poses he pulls)

You agree that Tiesto "seems" to be more passionate about the music. As producers, surely this is something we all care about.

They are both in it for the money now with regards to the choices they are making, we agree on that.

My point is, and this is why I entered this discussion is I can't see how anyone can hold such disdain against Tiesto and yet see oakenfold in a much more positive light.

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Listen to and download all my tracks at www.gregnicot.bandcamp.com

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Originally posted by G-Con Personally I put them both about the same in all respects. I don't see how Paul's career coming before Tiesto means anything. Yes, he did give Tiesto his first big break but if he hadn't, chances are someone else would. Its not like Tiesto has been riding on the success of Oakenfold through his career. Okay, you say Paul isn't arrogant, you've met him so fair enough. He certainly comes across as arrogant on stage. I've seen him three times and everytime he looked like he didn't give a shit, half the time he just spoke to someone with his back to the crowd. Maybe in person, he is great but he doesn't always give the paying public the respect THEY deserve. As mentioned in your next post, Tiesto is largely faultless in this area. I've seen him 6 times, everytime, like you say, his enthusiasm and passion is clear to see (even if he can be a cheesy idiot with some of the poses he pulls) You agree that Tiesto "seems" to be more passionate about the music. As producers, surely this is something we all care about. They are both in it for the money now with regards to the choices they are making, we agree on that. My point is, and this is why I entered this discussion is I can't see how anyone can hold such disdain against Tiesto and yet see oakenfold in a much more positive light.

Don't confuse a positive light with respect.

And....You stated this....

"I don't see how Paul's career coming before Tiesto means anything."

Are you serious? There's a good chance Tiesto and the entire scene as we know it would be completely different if it weren't for Oakenfold. I hate to sound like an old fogey asshole, but you need a serious lesson on the roots of dance music and why we are where we are and where it all started. (And so you know, Tiesto is not in that picture. He never pioneered a thing, although he's stolen quite a few)

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Originally posted by Magnus Since we are on the topic of Tiesto, I have to share what he did the last time I saw him. Regardless of what he has or has not done for music, he seems to be extremely arrogant and full of himself, something I completely despise. About 3 years ago I saw him at a show. In the middle of his set in front of well over a thousand people, he stoops down behind the decks and begins messing with something. Soon after, he emerges with a rolled up poster in his hand. He's got my attention and curiosity going. What could it be? He unrolls this poster that strecthed as wide as his arms would go and to our delights, it was a giant picture of himself. Disgusted, I thought well maybe at least he'll be throwing it into the crowd for a fan or something. No. He neatly rolls it back up and puts it away. My friends and I left shortly thereafter.

That's fucking disgusting!!!!

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Are you serious? There's a good chance Tiesto and the entire scene as we know it would be completely different if it weren't for Oakenfold. I hate to sound like an old fogey asshole, but you need a serious lesson on the roots of dance music and why we are where we are and where it all started. (And so you know, Tiesto is not in that picture. He never pioneered a thing, although he's stolen quite a few)

I'm well aware of what Oakenfold has done for dance music. My point is, you make it sound like Tiesto owes all his success to Oakenfold which is bollocks.

Lets just leave it there, I rarely enter forum debates because they go round and round with no one getting anywhere.

I'm off to the 16bit vs 24bit thread to wait for someone to post some samples for you to blind test

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loool, seems like everyone here needs lessons on the roots of dance music,''according to DjStephenWiley'' this thread is funny as hell lmao

The way I see it they have both sold out; however Tiesto spouts of his arrogance almost intentionally, like he knows he can get away with it. Paul seems arrogant as well but in a quieter manner.

I am not big fans of either of them anymore. They were the two that got me into music back in the day; but aside from reaching such a broad audience and being the first two mega dj's; I don't respect them worth shit.

Both use ghost writers. Both are in this for the money. Whoever said Tiesto loves the music is a complete clown. If he loved the music and was passionate about it why would he on so many instances get caught pressing play on a pre recorded set in a live gig? I am fine with someone doing this if they weren't trying to play it off like they were a God doing it all live.

His early productions were very good. As of late you can see he is playing to the kids to reinforce his polling spots. The music is just much more poppy; much less dramatic.

On a similar note the same thing is currently happening with Markus Schulz. He has been my favorite dj and one of my favorite producers for a long time but he is also making the same slide down the slippery slope Tiesto made. I have started losing respect for him over the last year. He is doing a lot more now just for commercial success and acceptance. In the past it was all about the dark broody prog shit which everyone ate up; now he is just trying to put out commercial stuff so that all the kids will eat up. That's my opinion but the Markus Schulz sound of today is not the sound of old. I've even heard rumors that he has Elevation write his tracks now. I really hope that's wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.

Why do these dj's put so much into a full touring schedule every year and neglect the people of their talent in the studio? I guess they don't realize that as the head and forefront of the industry that they are the ones setting the trends and the bar as far as production and dj set quality. If the top slacks; the rest of the chain will follow. I don't see how it's so difficult to cut back gigging a little bit and put your heart into production instead of hiring someone to do it for you. I will never respect someone that uses a ghost writer. I may like the music; but respect is a different story.

I just wish people could see these guys for what they really were. They have so much power and such huge followings now though I don't think it matters what is said because everyone just touts it as jealousy of not being in their position.

Oakenfold = money hungry, talented businessman
Tiesto = lazy, horrific dj.

Oakenfold's roots:

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The birth of rave Twenty years ago this month, four friends from London went on holiday to Ibiza. What happened next would change the course of pop culture. Emma Warren hears their stories Emma Warren Sunday August 12, 2007 Observer Music Monthly In late August 1987, four London music heads boarded a plane for a week-long holiday in Ibiza. There they discovered a little-known club called Amnesia and a DJ called Alfredo and instead of coming back with a few out-of-focus snaps, Paul Oakenfold, Johnny Walker, Danny Rampling and Nicky Holloway returned home exhausted but burning with a missionary zeal. Paul Oakenfold: In 1987, two friends of mine, Ian St Paul and Trevor Fung, were working out in Ibiza, so I decided to have my 24th birthday there and invite some other friends - Danny Rampling, Nicky Holloway and Johnny Walker. We were all DJing or running clubs in London at the time. I'd been to Ibiza once before, for work, because I was working with Divine, in my capacity as a club promotions man, and she was playing Ku [now Privilege], the biggest club there. But this was my first proper trip. Nicky Holloway: We hired a villa near San Antonio, near the bay. We were only kids and thought it would be a cool, flash thing to do. We'd been going to Ibiza since 1982, but mainly wandering around San An, going to the Cafe Del Mar in the afternoon and [nightclub] Es Paradis at night. On the first night of the holiday we bumped into Trevor Fung, a London DJ working out in Ibiza, who told us about Amnesia and this new drug called ecstasy. I wasn't going to do any, but then saw everyone having such a good time and thought, 'Fuck it'. Before then, we were like any other kids, just drinking. Paul Oakenfold: Amnesia was an old farm, miles away, so we were like, 'How are we going to get there?' In those days, we had just about enough money for a bread roll - Ibiza's expensive, always has been. But we went. It was the first night of our holiday and we'd heard it was something special. Alfredo Fiorito, Amnesia DJ: I had been a newspaper journalist in Argentina, writing about music and running rock'n'roll concerts, but I left during the military dictatorship in the late Seventies. I ended up in Paris, then Madrid, then I visited a friend in Ibiza and just never left. I was selling candles and clothes. Then, in 1982, a guy I knew who had a club called Amnesia decided to go to Thailand. He gave me the keys and said I was in charge. I checked the mixers and went 'Wow! That's how you do it!' Amnesia was a farmhouse converted into a club, a place for musicians and Indian gurus. It was freer than other places, and cheaper. Background or social class didn't matter. I was the only DJ. We opened at 3am and went on until midday, so people would come down after the other clubs shut. It had a very special atmosphere. Nicky Holloway: It was open for a good few years before we discovered it. At first it was just a farmhouse with a few tables and chairs that people went to after Ku, and it grew slowly. Ulises Braun, bar owner: By 1987, Amnesia had six or seven bars and about half of them were rented out to people like me. Everything in Amnesia was spontaneous and different. It was a wild time. There were no laws: people were making love on the dancefloor, drinking and dancing, taking litres of liquid ecstasy between them. It looked like a Federico Fellini movie; every personality was different. Everyone was dressed up. I dressed like D'Artagnan, in high boots. Danny Rampling: Amensia was a complete revelation. Alfredo, as a DJ, blended texture and music in a way I would compare to a Miro painting. For me, he was the Larry Levan [legendary DJ from the Paradise Garage in New York in the late Seventies] of Europe. Interestingly, Alfredo was connected to an American who was part of the Paradise Garage group, who used to supply him records. Dancing in the open air, surrounded by an incredible mix of sexy people was mind-blowing. Johnny Walker: We were under the stars, in the warm summer air, hearing this amazing mixture Alfredo was playing. In the middle of the open air dancefloor was a mirrored pyramid, then around the edges were bars and chill out areas with cushions, and Mediterranean and tropical plants. It was high walled, like being in a tropical garden. Paul Oakenfold: In England at that time, clubs only played one type of music, and London was full of attitude. But at Amnesia you had 7,000 people dancing to Cyndi Lauper. Total freedom. Alfredo: In the summer of 1987 I was playing Thrashing Doves' 'Jesus on the Payroll', Elkin and Nelson's 'Jibaro', Joao Gilberto, Talking Heads, Prince, Bob Marley, the Woodentops. Early in the evening I'd play Manuel Göttsching's 'E2-E4' or Art of Noise's 'Moments in Love'. I was playing music from South America, Europe, different places. It was the time of the Berlin Wall, glasnost, and there was a feeling of unity among Europeans that influenced the music. Nicky Holloway: We all tried ecstasy for the first time together, and then the whole thing made sense. Alfredo was playing [Chicago house label imprints] Trax and DJ International next to Kate Bush and Queen, all the white English acts we'd turn our noses up at. But on E, it all made sense. Half an hour or so after you necked a pill you would suddenly feel this euphoric wave go through you, like shooom! - hence the name of Danny's club - and you suddenly felt that everything in the world was all right. Ulises Braun: He played disco, new wave, classical, Argentinian tango. People like Paul Oakenfold would be watching him like he was a god. There were people taking their clothes off, making love, I tell you the truth. When Alfredo stopped the music, people started to scream: 'Alfredo! Alfredo!' He was the only man, he played seven days a week, for six or seven months at a time. It was a special club, a madness house. Some people would come and look and just run away. Danny Rampling: I'll bring something different to the table here. I felt there was something deeper, spiritually, running through the whole experience. I discovered something recently, through my own research. In August 1987, there was an event called the Harmonic Convergence, a global shift in unity consciousness through dance rituals, which is part of the Maya calendar teachings. Alfredo: The people and the music made it. You'd get a young guy talking to an old person - and listening to each other. There were no sexy women showing their bum. Well, there was, but they'd be in the middle of the dancefloor. Everybody was part of the place. Ulises Braun: There were a few celebrities like Steve Strange. I had to take care of Grace Jones when she was out of her mind. George Michael came after he filmed the video for Club Tropicana at Pikes Hotel. He was hanging out at my bar and did his first ecstasy. It seems like yesterday, him singing to me right in front of my face. Danny Rampling: That first night, the last tune at sunrise was U2's 'I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For'. That night I found everything I had been looking for. All four of us changed that night. I can remember saying I think we may be on to something here. Nicky Holloway: Afterwards, we went back to the villa. It was weird. We were all standing in the pool, holding hands listening to Art of Noise's 'Moments in Love', like a load of wallies. All chilled out and loved up, thinking it was going to change the world, thinking that if everyone did Es there would be no more wars. Johnny Walker: We went back again later in the season and got a tape of Alfredo's set. After the club we'd go back to the villa, trying to work out what the tunes were, even though a lot of them were English. We were DJing in soul and jazz clubs and no one was playing house in London at that time, apart from in gay clubs. He'd play two copies of 'House Nation' which he'd cut up and stretch out, then play a George Michael track. Paul Oakenfold: Alfredo used to sell tapes from the DJ booth and this record shop in Ibiza Town, so you could find out what he was playing, or at least try. Because I worked for promotions company Rush Release, I knew where to source the records; primarily they were alternative pop records. Nicky and Danny were soul heads so they didn't know you could get the Woodentops in HMV. Nicky Holloway: We came back literally wearing the T-shirts and holding the flyers and within five months, Paul started Spectrum, Danny started Shoom and I started the Trip. Three groundbreaking clubs! It was no accident. We knew it was going to be huge. Danny Rampling: When I came back my radio show went from downbeat smoochy soul sevens from Atlanta, to pumping Chicago house and alternative balearic. Some folk were horrified. The listeners increased by thousands; I probably had about 10 listeners before. I started playing things like Kenny 'Jammin" Jason's 'Can U Dance?', which still sends a surge of positive energy through me when I hear it. I've got that record framed at home. Nicky Holloway: Paul and I had to go back for the closing night of Amnesia in October. I had a 24-hour delay at Gatwick and spent the night in a hotel they provided; Paul had to go via Majorca as there where no flights available - but we both eventually made it. We got to Amnesia about 2am, and I dropped a pill. There was a big electric storm that took out half the island's electricity. Our half. I ended up sitting outside a bar in San Antonio, buzzing my tits off. It was like we had won the lottery and lost the ticket. Johnny Walker: The holiday didn't stop. We had had such an amazing time that we just wanted to carry on. That's really how it started. The people who worked in Ibiza came back at the end of the season, and most of them were from south London. Paul was working at a hip hop night in Streatham, so he said we could get the club after it closed at 2am and have a party. Those first free invite-only parties were basically just trying to recreate Ibiza. Paul even flew Alfredo over a few times. But the parties were so amazing that word of mouth spread and there was a need to do them in a bigger venue. Danny started Shoom, strictly invite only, Nicky started Trip. 1987 was doom and gloom with the British economy but we didn't have a clue, we were having a great time. Paul Oakenfold: Before Ibiza I was playing LL Cool J and Run DMC but when we came back I was playing acid house and Cyndi Lauper. We had baggy trousers and were dancing like maniacs and everyone was like, 'What the fuck are you lot doing?' I started Spectrum on a Monday, which was all acid, and Future on a Friday night, which was indie mixed with dance. That's how I ended up remixing Happy Mondays, the Cure, the Stone Roses, and touring with U2. Danny Rampling: There were 50 people on the first night of Shoom and 12 weeks later 2,000 people were in the street outside. That period from '87 until about '89 was spectacular. Johnny Walker: It was Alfredo's influence. I always felt he never got the full credit. We were just in the right place and carried on the party. Paul Oakenfold: That trip was so overwhelming. We were infatuated with it. Sometimes in life, and I've had this a couple of times, it's just right place, right time.

http://music.guardian.co.uk/omm/sto...2144253,00.html