Healthcare is a right, and the people will have it, whether those privileged members of society so averse to change like it or not.

It is absolutely amazing to me that you can convince this country to get into a trillion dollar war for almost no reason in the span of a few months, yet universal healthcare is made out to be the end of our beloved nation as we know it, harbinger of socialism, facism, and the return of the nazis.

What the FUCK is wrong with people?

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis Healthcare is a right, and the people will have it, whether those privileged members of society so averse to change like it or not.

How can it be a right if your very access to it depends on the availability and willingness of somebody else to provide it? If there were no willing or available doctors your walking around waving your fingers around shouting about your rights is but a farce.

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Originally posted by Shakka How can it be a right if your very access to it depends on the availability and willingness of somebody else to provide it? If there were no willing or available doctors your walking around waving your fingers around shouting about your rights is but a farce.

When put that way, almost nothing at all is a right.

I mean healthcare is a right in that an enlightened, advanced society should be able to provide a reasonable level of care to all of its citizens beyond just letting an ambulance clean up the mess.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis When put that way, almost nothing at all is a right.

That's why our inalienable rights are so few. Your rights end when they impinge upon the rights of others. You have your life, your freedom and your ability to pursue the best that you can provide for yourself within your grasp. Beyond that, it becomes hazy.

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I mean healthcare is a right in that an enlightened, advanced society should be able to provide a reasonable level of care to all of its citizens beyond just letting an ambulance clean up the mess.

So it really comes down to talking about entitlements. I mean if it was a clear right there really wouldn't be a debate. But as an entitlement issue it's no wonder our elected dolts can spend endless hours debating the merits and details of it. Wouldn't you agree?

I personally think the crux of the issue is coming down to cost and access. The prices we pay for basic health services are undoubtedly way too high, and probably not at least in large part due to the fact that those with insurance rarely ever see the full prices being charged so they don't give a rat's ass what it costs. On the other hand, insurance companies can deny coverage to anyone they choose and operating as profit-based entities, their incentives are misaligned with their core mission to cover healthcare costs--they want to maximize revenues and minimize expenses. I don't think we need radical change at the federal level to fix those problems, but I think they are problems that clearly need to be addressed because the longer we stay on the current path the worse the situation becomes.

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Originally posted by Clovis When put that way, almost nothing at all is a right. I mean healthcare is a right in that an enlightened, advanced society should be able to provide a reasonable level of care to all of its citizens beyond just letting an ambulance clean up the mess.

Blindly asserting something is a "right" in an oh-so-righteous tone doesn't make it so.. If I say everyone has a "right" to three meals a day, a home, transportation, shoes and clothing for themselves and their kids, and other necessities of life, those things aren't going to pop into existence like raindrops. They are not natural resources available in unlimited quantity for anyone to use at no cost.. Material goods need to be MADE by the time and energy of others..and if they really are "rights", then they must be provided whether those making the products are willing or not..whether they get paid or not..no terms can be debates or disagreed upon when they are providing things that "rightly" belong to others. In effect, we need to enslave part of society to ensure the "entitlements" of others are fulfilled. It's a nightmarish philosophy once you peel back the feel-good exterior.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Blindly asserting something is a "right" in an oh-so-righteous tone doesn't make it so.. If I say everyone has a "right" to three meals a day, a home, transportation, shoes and clothing for themselves and their kids, and other necessities of life, those things aren't going to pop into existence like raindrops. They are not natural resources available in unlimited quantity for anyone to use at no cost.. Material goods need to be MADE by the time and energy of others..and if they really are "rights", then they must be provided whether those making the products are willing or not..whether they get paid or not..no terms can be debates or disagreed upon when they are providing things that "rightly" belong to others. In effect, we need to enslave part of society to ensure the "entitlements" of others are fulfilled. It's a nightmarish philosophy once you peel back the feel-good exterior.

Do you realize the insured are already paying for the uninsured? Why are you against getting the uninsured insured and at least paying SOMETHING into the system? And why are you content to let for-profit corporations control healthcare in this country, especially given the fact that in every other western democracy, healthcare is regulated like a public utility in healthcare systems that work much better than our piece of shit private system?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Blindly asserting something is a "right" in an oh-so-righteous tone doesn't make it so..

No, it doesn't.

It would take me too long to explain to you why we can, and should extend the right to healthcare to people in this country.

Figure it out. Or don't.

Also, think long and hard about who comes closest to being "enslaved" in this country.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Krypton Do you realize the insured are already paying for the uninsured? Why are you against getting the uninsured insured and at least paying SOMETHING into the system? And why are you content to let for-profit corporations control healthcare in this country, especially given the fact that in every other western democracy, healthcare is regulated like a public utility in healthcare systems that work much better than our piece of shit private system?

Our "piece of shit" private system works for 85% of the country who is currently insured krypt..and there is a reason the vast majority of new medications and treatments are developed here rather than the socialist hellholes overseas..because we don't rape our companies quite as hard as they do (yet). I'm all for helping the uninsured..but you do this by making it more affordable for them to buy insurance.. Cutting taxes dramatically on both them and the healthcare companies would be a good start. Tort reform would be another..and legalizing the purchase of out of state insurance plans would lead to a huge cost savings as well. There are plenty of ways besides socialism-lite to increase access to healthcare. More federal control is far from the best answer.

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Originally posted by Krypton Do you realize the insured are already paying for the uninsured? Why are you against getting the uninsured insured and at least paying SOMETHING into the system? And why are you content to let for-profit corporations control healthcare in this country, especially given the fact that in every other western democracy, healthcare is regulated like a public utility in healthcare systems that work much better than our piece of shit private system?

That's amazing...our "piece of shit" private system is so much worse than all other western democracies. Is this what you read in some propaganda piece or made up/distorted statistic? It must be a fluke that Canadians near the border travel to the US to have routine procedures done here. I'll even give you another example of what the "public option" will provide you. A good friend of mine in the UK on it is at risk of paralysis due to nerve compression in his neck. Since July, he has been waiting for an appointment that might arrive in October/November. With private insurance, he himself admitted this 4-month wait could be lowered to a mere week.

Government bureaucracy is just as expensive, if not more so, than the system we have now...and it's way more inefficient as illustrated in that example above. Some reforms (kudos, Capitalizt) are needed but not the boondoggle that Pelosi and her cronies are trying to ram down our throats.

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Originally posted by Moongoose So how exactly is the big terrible government obstructing you from your pursuit of happiness?

Easy. Excessive taxation and meddling in the lives of its citizenry.

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Also you should be free of all the terrible oppression from the big bad us soon, if i watched the news correctly two of the people that are running for governor of texas are die hard seccesionists. And wont that be grand if by some freak incident they get elected.

You concern yourself with what's happening in Slovenia and I'll enjoy my time in one of the US states that is least affected by this recession (I'll let you guess which ones are suffering the most).

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Originally posted by vinnie97 You concern yourself with what's happening in Slovenia and I'll enjoy my time in one of the US states that is least affected by this recession (I'll let you guess which ones are suffering the most).

Indeed, when I am on the losing side of a debate, I'd rather prohibit everyone smarter than myself from participating, too.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Amazingly, this is a pretty rational discussion:

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