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Originally posted by The17sss It won't matter when the public option destroys private insurance, as was his stated goal in 2003 and 2007. By default, the government plan will be all there is if he gets his wish and the illegals will get their free shit. Or, we can just wait for him to try and force amnesty which we know is coming, and then suddenly they won't be so illegal anymore.

The public option is going to be a rather exclusive club, I highly doubt that people who already have health insurance can just drop their current plan and get covered for free by the government. I'm pretty sure you're going to have to be approved for a Federal Health Tax Credit. I hate that fucking argument, too many people think that the public option is going to take over all the private insurance companies. That's not at all what it's purpose is, wtf!

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Originally posted by The17sss It won't matter when the public option destroys private insurance,

Ridiculous. You know as well as I that progressives are just as vocally pissed at the Administration as conservatives are - the bill is extraordinarily, failingly moderate.

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Originally posted by The17sss that's kinda what's happening man. 52% of Americans now oppose the House's health care plan, and he's down with going against the will of the people. It's not like I didn't expect that to happen, but he ran as a centrist with bipartisan spirit in mind.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...amas-proposals/

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The biggest threat to the current bill in the House is the progressive caucus. To play the President off as radically liberal on this one is just to not have your facts anywhere near correct. This bill is moderate to a fault, and he's losing the support of both extremes as a result.

Furthermore, your numbers are way off - 10-12 million uninsured illegals? Try 6-7 at max. There are a total of 11.9 million illegals in this country, of which roughly 50% are currently insured through their employer. What you're complaining about is that those currently insured won't have their coverage dropped by their privately-insured employers. Let's just be clear on that. The federal government does not, and will not, be subsidizing costs or providing insurance for the 6 million currently uninsured illegals.

If you have proof that suggests otherwise, feel free to post it. But so far we have false numbers and a tenuous slippery slope argument that the bill (and implicitly the status quo?) will lead to subsequent legislation that leads to universal public coverage for people the bill explicitly states won't be covered by the public.

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Originally posted by The17sss that's kinda what's happening man. 52% of Americans now oppose the House's health care plan, and he's down with going against the will of the people. It's not like I didn't expect that to happen, but he ran as a centrist with bipartisan spirit in mind.

No that is not what is happening.

52% of Americans oppose the healthcare plan because the GOP has misled a sizable chunk of the country into thinking that increasing and reforming access to healthcare in this country is worse than rape.

Of that 52% I'll bet less than half have legitimate, reasonable and well educated concerns with the plan (which I acknowledge there are). The rest have been scared into submission to the idea that we will become a communist country overnight, bureaucrats are going to pull the plug on grandma, illegal aliens will be given another free ride, and free markets will be thing of the past (even though they already are).

Next stop...gulags

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...amas-proposals/

Too many Americans can't make up their fucking minds. While this is good news, it also points out how half of Bill Clinton's supporters bailed on him a few weeks after his poll numbers spiked.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...amas-proposals/

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The sample of speech-watchers in this poll was 45 percent Democratic and 18 percent Republican.

Nice try. From the AP: Obamacare disapproval at 52%:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...MuMZ1gD9AJST3O0


Rassmussen: 53% oppose Obamacare, 44% approve
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._plan_53_oppose

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To play the President off as radically liberal on this one is just to not have your facts anywhere near correct.

That statement could be even funnier than your CNN spin poll. The man with the most liberal voting record in the Senate is a moderate. Right! And I have some ocean front real estate I'd like to sell you.

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Furthermore, your numbers are way off - 10-12 million uninsured illegals? Try 6-7 at max. There are a total of 11.9 million illegals in this country, of which roughly 50% are currently insured through their employer.

And what makes you think YOU have the numbers correct? Obama himself has said 12-20 million, which seems to be the number everyone uses... but they don't really know. How do you also explain the number in his speech dropping from 47 to 30 million amid the "illegal immigrants" arguments?

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What you're complaining about is that those currently insured won't have their coverage dropped by their privately-insured employers. Let's just be clear on that. The federal government does not, and will not, be subsidizing costs or providing insurance for the 6 million currently uninsured illegals.

You're even talking like him now. "Let me be clear". What makes you so sure that you're right about the above statement?

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Ridiculous.

You keep asking people if they've read the bill. Well now I'm asking you. Page 16 of the bill has a provision that makes private insurance illegal. Sure you can keep your plan that you like... until it expires, or the premium changes, or you change any form of coverage at any point. Then it will be impossible to get private insurance any longer. Read here--> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...332548165656854

Why is this a surprise? Obama is on video speaking to the SEIU and AFL-CIO in 2003 and 2007 specifically saying he is a proponant of a single payer system, it's what he wants, it's what he will fight to get. Barney Frank has said on video that the public option will lead to it. Several other Democrats have as well. I have all the links to them saying as much. I've posted them before, and yet you ignore them or pretend like they never happened/don't matter. You're drinking in the Orwellian juice like crazy!


Edit: you should read this article by Duke University professor John David Lewis, as he breaks down a lot of the controversial questions into plain English for the layperson. Eye opening. Oh, and what's your take on HR 3200 forcing people to pay a $3800 fine if they don't buy insurance? That's what a moderate who believes in freedom of choice would do, right?

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/...l-actually-says

Last edited by The17sss on Sep-11-2009 at 01:11

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Originally posted by Clovis No that is not what is happening. 52% of Americans oppose the healthcare plan because the GOP has misled a sizable chunk of the country into thinking that increasing and reforming access to healthcare in this country is worse than rape. Of that 52% I'll bet less than half have legitimate, reasonable and well educated concerns with the plan (which I acknowledge there are). The rest have been scared into submission to the idea that we will become a communist country overnight, bureaucrats are going to pull the plug on grandma, illegal aliens will be given another free ride, and free markets will be thing of the past (even though they already are). Next stop...gulags

That's some pretty hardcore conspiracy thinking. What has happened is that pieces of the bill have come to light, and the alternative to the mainstream media are showing people some facts that they were not aware of. Sure there is some disinformation out there... ON BOTH SIDES. But for the most part, people are smart enough to figure things out for themselves when given the time to have over 1000 pages explored. You seem to just want to let anything Obama wants pass right through with no debate, as quickly as possible. Democrats weren't even reading the bill by their own admission! That's not how it should work before voting on massive legislation.

Let me ask you this: if our healthcare system is so broken, and private insurance is so bad, why is he telling people if they like it, they can keep it?

And, what was the rush to jam it through in 2 weeks when he first tried? It isn't supposed to go into effect until March 2013... right after the 2012 presidential election. That's fucking fishy as hell dude. If we're really on the brink of catastrophe with the healthcare system, why not enact it ASAP once it passes?

I for one am shocked they haven't passed some form of universal healthcare yet. Why is Obama f*cking around? He should have done this his first month in office. With overwhelming approval and a huge majority in both houses, he could have had it.. Now we've had all these scandals and doubts spreading across the country, the opposition has been mobilized, we've discovered that the debt will be $2 trillion more than Obama anticipated, and now this news about Acorn throwing further doubt on the wisdom of people in government (who were throwing hundreds of millions at them in stimulus payments, etc.) It's frakking doomed now. Too bad lefties. You had your shot at a real socialist dream for a few months there..the goal you've been aiming at with incremental steps since FDR and you blew it.

Last edited by Capitalizt on Sep-11-2009 at 01:48

There's a huge difference between a moderate and a liberal putting forth a moderate bill. I don't know how to explain this to you in words you'll understand, and if we can't even come to terms on that simple point I think we're just going to go round and round on this one to nobody's benefit.

I'm frankly shocked that you think Obama is pushing for a liberal bill, what with the daily headlines screaming about him getting blasted by progressives for abandoning the public option.

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No, that's my point lez...Why did he even bother trying to compromise? He had a strong mandate in January and it has been slowly slipping away ever since. What did he accomplish with it? Maybe one thing...cap and trade, big frakking deal. It should have been a "liberal" bill from the start.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt No, that's my point lez. Why did he even bother trying to compromise? He had a strong mandate in January and it has been slowly slipping away ever since. What did he accomplish with it? Maybe one thing...Cap and trade, big frakking deal.

Sorry, I should have quoted. My point was directed at the17sss, who is still insisting Obama is stridently liberal. He had the opportunity to be, but as you said he took his time trying to be moderate and is now frantically trying to rally support in the 11th hour.

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