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Originally posted by Lira Yeah, but being extroverted and polite does wonders

fuck 'em.

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Originally posted by woscar I have to say that you and JBJ are completely missing the point about what he meant as "science answering these questions". He is not stating that science per se has the answer to moral truths, but rather that having a scientific approach towards finding these truths is a good way to conduct such a search. And by scientific approach, he means through observation, critical thinking, and analysis.

But you cannot reduce it to a scientific approach because concepts like "human flourishing" always spring out of a particular cultural background. There is no universal set of ingredients for a "flourishing" life, because the concept is different depending on which person you ask. This is why his analogy to nutrition is bogus, and why the whole project of treating value as a scientific enterprise is flawed. Science works to map the world because it forces up to bump up against the physical by making our ideas pay rent in the form of predictions, but value is not something measurable out in the world, it is something that grows from within people's minds.

And that's precisely what he is doing: criticizing moral relativism and cultural relativism as an obstruction to getting anything done moral-wise.

What you and Adam are suggesting is that people who happen to be born in a culture that lives by archaic, Bronze Age values should be subjected to those values for no other reason than that it comes with the culture. To use his example, people should continue to be subjected to the raped daughter = shame = murdered daughter line of thinking because it's a "cultural difference"?

Anyways, he's writing a book on this that's coming out later this year. It will be interesting to read his whole ideas rather than just a 20 minute lecture.

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Last edited by woscar on Mar-24-2010 at 05:09

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fuck 'em.

That's put me in a lot of trouble... and I'm not sure whether I should fuck myself in this case as well

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quote:

Originally posted by woscar What you and Adam are suggesting is that people who happen to be born in a culture that lives by archaic, Bronze Age values should be subjected to those values for no other reason than that it comes with the culture. To use his example, people should continue to be subjected to the raped daughter = shame = murdered daughter line of thinking because it's a "cultural difference"?

It is easy to condemn other cultures when you single out the worst things they do. Of course I think "honor killings" are horrible and I'm sure Adam does as well, but acknowledging that does not automatically imply that ethics can be made into a scientific enterprise.

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Originally posted by woscar it used to be pleasant to have an argument with you but now you just whine about everything.

so any time someone disagrees with something you like, he is whining?

So you don't agree that there are universal truths about moral values that can be reached?

Marcus, there are times when being aggressive works in the context of speaking for atheism. Take Dawkins' controversial line on "The God Delusion":

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The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, fili- cidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

By reading his preface, you are told clearly to whom this book is directed for and those are the people who are on the fence. In this case, what being "on the fence" generally refers to is people who have been raised in a religious faith and have begun to have doubts about it. People who sense there's something wrong, but don't speak out because of fear or as he puts it "didn't know they could". For this type of person, this line works like a charm.

It could be argued that he might be able to reach a broader audience if he toned things down, but that doesn't seem to be his goal.

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Originally posted by nefardec so any time someone disagrees with something you like, he is whining?

Read your first post on this thread and then read the discussion I am having with JBJ. There's a big difference, isn't it?

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quote:

Originally posted by woscar So you don't agree that there are universal truths about moral values that can be reached?

I know I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar Marcus, there are times when being aggressive works in the context of speaking for atheism. Take Dawkins' controversial line on "The God Delusion": By reading his preface, you are told clearly to whom this book is directed for and those are the people who are on the fence. In this case, what being "on the fence" generally refers to is people who have been raised in a religious faith and have begun to have doubts about it. People who sense there's something wrong, but don't speak out because of fear or as he puts it "didn't know they could". For this type of person, this line works like a charm. It could be argued that he might be able to reach a broader audience if he toned things down, but that doesn't seem to be his goal.

He's not being "rude" her, so to speak, but being so harsh is definitely a double-edged sword: at the same time you may convince those who are on the fence, you burn all bridges you could've had with those you disagree with.

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quote:

Originally posted by woscar Read your first post on this thread and then read the discussion I am having with JBJ. There's a big difference, isn't it?

yeah the difference is you have it out for me. why?

it's obvious based on your replies including all sorts of put-downs and personal attacks in this thread and the other recent science thread that you have formed an opinion of me as a person that affects your ability or desire to discuss things with me without becoming irate or offensive.

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Originally posted by Lira you burn all bridges you could've had with those you disagree with.

how do you burn imaginery bridges?

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Originally posted by woscar And that's precisely what he is doing: criticizing moral relativism and cultural relativism as an obstruction to getting anything done moral-wise. What you and Adam are suggesting is that people who happen to be born in a culture that lives by archaic, Bronze Age values should be subjected to those values for no other reason than that it comes with the culture. To use his example, people should continue to be subjected to the raped daughter = shame = murdered daughter line of thinking because it's a "cultural difference"?

This I agree with.