quote:

Originally posted by harlsom Ok I haven't listened to those tracks or your mix you uploaded, but something you might want to do that hasnt been talked about yet is count your beats. As in, count the beats for the outro of the song you're mixing out of, and of the intro of the song you want to mix in. Normally tracks will have their major changes every 32 or 64 beats, and will have the same sort of progression in terms of their intro's and outro's making it easy to match them up for a smooth mix. However, some tracks if you count the beats (and yes to do this properly you'll be counting over 100 beats a lot of the time) will turn out to have different length intro's or outros or have little breaks in them that don't really seem to fit with whichever song you're trying to mix it with. One example i've come across is temptation by vengeance (dengus vs manus remix), where it has breaks in different spots to usual and an extra long intro... so i've had to loop the outro of the previous track for an extra 16 beats here, 32 beats there for it to mix smoothly. Also another tip... for songs around 128-134bpm a pitch increase or decrease of 0.7% will be roughly up or down 1bpm. So if you know one track is 130 and the other is 128, just pitch up the 128bpm track by 1.5% and that should only require minor adjustments riding the pitch.

All this counting you're advocating takes all of the spontaneity out of DJing. Do it for long enough, learn your tracks and you'll instinctively know and react when key changeups are about to occur.

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quote:

Originally posted by keithos27 ^why turn that off? with it on won't it lock in the key, regardless of bpm?

Using the Master Tempo Key Lock creates artifacts in the sound. You can get away with it to some degree but I wouldn't do it if you plan on playing in a club or if your changing the pitch more than 1 or 2 percent.

Plus without the function on you can really do some nifty things.

As for beat matching...practice practice practice. It comes with time. Sometime's what sounds good in your head doesn't work out on the decks either. It happens to all of us, sometimes it's good to try some new ideas.

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quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno All this counting you're advocating takes all of the spontaneity out of DJing. Do it for long enough, learn your tracks and you'll instinctively know and react when key changeups are about to occur.

when someone is learning, spontaneity should take a back seat to getting the basics tight. Once those are down, then kick it up a notch, no use in running before walking is there?

As a common rule at ~1min the intro of the track ends and around ~2min the bass start changing, you've 2 min to beatmatch your track if you have problems start beatmatching from the 1st kick, i usually cue in the next song after the build up (drop) of the 1st track. Mixing with phrases it's a bit intuitive, practice, practice, practice.

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Originally posted by IL Duce when someone is learning, spontaneity should take a back seat to getting the basics tight. Once those are down, then kick it up a notch, no use in running before walking is there?

I the sessions I give, I teach people that developing spontaneity is part of the learning process.

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Totally agree with the spontanaety thing mate, however this guy is obviously having trouble trying to put a few specific tracks together, banging his head against a brick wall trying to figure it out :P

The whole getting a feel for things, instinct etc will come but there are some tracks out there (like the one I mentioned) that don't fit the way everything else out there does. I was having the same trouble until i actually counted it and realised the changeups didn't happen the same way they usually do.

If you're trying to record a mix and make it sound as good as possible, you want each track to fade in and out at the spots that are gonna create the best vibe/energy.

Especially for someone who is still getting a grasp of this stuff, counting bars can only help them in their understanding and feel of the layout of dance music. Nobody would do it all the time, it's mind numbing :P

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Originally posted by PivotTechno I the sessions I give, I teach people that developing spontaneity is part of the learning process.

it really is, i'm not disputing that...but when you have been mixing for a few years and can't seem to pull off a decent transition it is time to go back to basics. I'm not saying that creativity has no part in the process, just that you can be creative as hell and still not make it sound good because you are all over the place.

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Originally posted by IL Duce it really is, i'm not disputing that...but when you have been mixing for a few years and can't seem to pull off a decent transition it is time to go back to basics. I'm not saying that creativity has no part in the process, just that you can be creative as hell and still not make it sound good because you are all over the place.

Since someone already mentioned golf, I'll bring it up again, in relation to this post. Bear with me.

About halfway through his career, one of the greatest golfers of all time, Byron Nelson, stopped getting any swing lessons whatsoever. However, every day, he had his former coach stand behind him and make sure his feet were still lined up toward the target at address. Even though his swing had become automatic, and his only focus was on spontaneously altering it, shot-by-shot, he still needed constant reinforcement to avoid standing in the wrong place. Even in the case of somebody with once-in-a-generation talent, the most basic concept (where to stand) is still a prerequisite for performing even moderately well.

tl;dr - Jay's right. Match first, style later.

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oh and another thing I just thought of.. again, i don't know whether its the case with your tracks, but some productions have their beats slightly out of time...
I think its a technique used to make things a fraction less syncopated to give it a more natural feel... although it would make things a little more difficult to match up.

quote:

Originally posted by harlsom oh and another thing I just thought of.. again, i don't know whether its the case with your tracks, but some productions have their beats slightly out of time... I think its a technique used to make things a fraction less syncopated to give it a more natural feel... although it would make things a little more difficult to match up.

'Swing'

Although there's usually not enough of a difference to feck things up for you.

I still stand by my advice. There are ways to develop good meter (which is largely what's required in this case) and subsequently good ears without counting beats. Most of the beginner DJs I instruct are like wooden boards behind the decks because they're already too much up in their heads - learning to relax and to MOVE while you're playing is a huge and often unrecognized part of learning to beatmatch and mix well.

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I'm glad that i never paid someone like you to teach me to be honest. Beatcounting is far from essential, but if you don't impliment it to total noobs, it must be because you want them to suck longer and take more lessons.