quote:

Originally posted by Orko Fallacy. Even though he does not live in TO, does not make his point any less valid. I hate the street car on King. It fucks up all of traffic during rush hour. Why would you stop TWO lanes of traffic, for only one vehicle? Now with all the construction for the king street car, if you want to go west, you have to transfer, change routes, it gets crazy. To get to work from roncy, I actually go out of the way (North) to the subway to avoid that whole mess! I've lived at steeles, and the bus did just fine up there. Please once again, what advantages do the streetcars have over buses?

So are we arguing from a driver's point of view or from a pedestrian/public transit user? Cus personally I don't drive and this whole traffic/lanes/etc business is irrelevent to me - I get out of the subway, jump into the streetcar and of I go (I actually prefer taking streetcars to subway downtown anyway, esp. in the summer)
like I said buses are much more unpleasant to ride in - double streetcars also hold more passangers

___________________
Just surrender yourself to the rhythm,
With your hands up in the sky,
Feel the energy deep inside your system
And leave this world behind...

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Every other north american city got rid of them long ago for good reason.

WRONG! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...reetcar_scandal

ttc was to follow suit, but the plans were dropped after torontonians protested

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew So are we arguing from a driver's point of view or from a pedestrian/public transit user? Cus personally I don't drive and this whole traffic/lanes/etc business is irrelevent to me - I get out of the subway, jump into the streetcar and of I go (I actually prefer taking streetcars to subway downtown anyway, esp. in the summer) like I said buses are much more unpleasant to ride in - double streetcars also hold more passangers

So because it is irrelevant to you that means it doesn't matter how everyone else is affected while the streetcar takes up 2 lanes of the road? that makes 0 sense. The whole point is to make it easier FOR EVERYONE to get around the city during rush hour including pedestrians and cars/busses. Street car is an outdated system that should be removed because it is costly to maintain and it slows down the city where it's already difficult to commute.

http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...ting-times?bn=1

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by geroin So because it is irrelevant to you that means it doesn't matter how everyone else is affected while the streetcar takes up 2 lanes of the road? that makes 0 sense. The whole point is to make it easier FOR EVERYONE to get around the city during rush hour including pedestrians and cars/busses. Street car is an outdated system that should be removed because it is costly to maintain and it slows down the city where it's already difficult to commute. http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...ting-times?bn=1

right back at ya - just cus you guys are driving and streetcars are irrelevent to you doesn't mean everyone is affected

so it won't be costly to purchase more buses instead and starting on the whole new subway route?

___________________
Just surrender yourself to the rhythm,
With your hands up in the sky,
Feel the energy deep inside your system
And leave this world behind...

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew right back at ya - just cus you guys are driving and streetcars are irrelevent to you doesn't mean everyone is affected

what?? where did i say it is irrelevant to me?? i said a new system has to be implemented to make it easier for everyone to commute. Maybe you missed the article i just posted?????

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 dedicated right of ways have proven to be disruptive and an expensive boondoggle. A lot of st clair stores have gone out of business thanks to that right of way. Subways are faster and dont take up surface space. They truly create more capacity instead of shifting or reducing it.

How have dedicated lanes been proven to be "disruptive"? They don't cause nearly the same sort of traffic jams that they used to since cars aren't required to stop along with street cars. Stores going out of business? Please elaborate on that. I can't see how a stores livelihood is based solely on the driving community of Toronto.

Subways cost 10's of millions of dollars more to build and way more to maintain. They're totally not worth the expansion into suburbia Toronto just to please a few people. The subway infrastructure is pretty much as good as it should be in Toronto, with a few sorely needed expansions in the west. Just because it's "faster" doesn't make it more economically viable. That sort of mentality is completely narrow-minded. You said yourself that the city is bankrupt and you're promoting more subway lines? lol

quote:

Originally posted by geroin what?? where did i say it is irrelevant to me?? i said a new system has to be implemented to make it easier for everyone to commute. Maybe you missed the article i just posted?????

I don't think it will be easier for EVERYONE to commute there are people who find streetcars efficient enough and it's not just me

our system is fairly crappy compared to most other major NA cities, so they should start at the core, instead of patching up areas which are OK for now, i.e. streetcar routes

___________________
Just surrender yourself to the rhythm,
With your hands up in the sky,
Feel the energy deep inside your system
And leave this world behind...

I personally find most street car routes to be a nightmare simply because of how the system was designed in Toronto. Go to Warsaw to see what a good street car system looks like.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin So because it is irrelevant to you that means it doesn't matter how everyone else is affected while the streetcar takes up 2 lanes of the road? that makes 0 sense. The whole point is to make it easier FOR EVERYONE to get around the city during rush hour including pedestrians and cars/busses. Street car is an outdated system that should be removed because it is costly to maintain and it slows down the city where it's already difficult to commute. http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...ting-times?bn=1

driving doesn't work for the city core.. it's not a scalable transportation method.. once you reach a certain point, it just fails, and toronto is there now.. we don't need less streetcars, we need more! and they all need to have dedicated lanes imo, as it improves the service and reduced commuting time

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 WRONG! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...reetcar_scandal ttc was to follow suit, but the plans were dropped after torontonians protested

interesting how it actually got done. But its a good thing it did. Imagine places like new york today if they had a streetcar system like ours? it would be mayhem!

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH Subways cost 10's of millions of dollars more to build and way more to maintain. They're totally not worth the expansion into suburbia Toronto. The subway infrastructure is pretty much as good as it should be, with a few sorely needed expansions in the west. Just because it's "faster" doesn't make it economically feasible. That sort of mindset is completely blind to whats actually going on.

dissagree, if you drive past rutherford rd on any street north of the city you will see how much the city is growing north, it is massive. New houses are being built all the way reaching aurora EVERYWHERE but no new roads/highways are being built. In a matter of few years most areas have been occupied and more people are moving north. Traffic going home is ridiculous and if another option like taking the subway was available i'd definitely take it instead of driving home for 1h+ every day.

___________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/gera

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH How have dedicated lanes been proven to be "disruptive"? They don't cause nearly the same sort of traffic jams that they used to since cars aren't required to stop along with street cars. Stores going out of business? Please elaborate on that. I can't see how a stores livelihood is based solely on the driving community of Toronto. Subways cost 10's of millions of dollars more to build and way more to maintain. They're totally not worth the expansion into suburbia Toronto just to please a few people. The subway infrastructure is pretty much as good as it should be in Toronto, with a few sorely needed expansions in the west. Just because it's "faster" doesn't make it more economically viable. That sort of mentality is completely narrow-minded. You said yourself that the city is bankrupt and you're promoting more subway lines? lol

Reduced lane capacity, difficulty making left turns, and reduced on street parking to start. Subways are tougher to build for sure. But that doesnt mean settling for half assed solutions like transit city. If we want to be a world class city we have to do some extraordinary things. We should have started this in the 60s but sadly we have dithered for 40 years. It will take a long time to catch up. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt!

The subway lines will come from already allocated money for transit city. Its cost neutral. And its a good start.

I agree that the next phase should be a downtown subway like a queen st or king st line.

Creating the right of ways cost 100s of millions each whereas buses on those routes would cost pretty much the cost of the bus and cheap to build shelters and stops.

As for the harm caused to businesses. There is currently a lawsuit about that:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc...streetcar-route

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill