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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Why not?

Turn the argument on its head to see if it holds water: Imagine you enjoy a truly happy life, and you wish to live for as long as possible. Good, right? Not quite. For some reason, everyone else thinks you're an insufferable bastard, and would rather see you dead. Your existence alone is enough to make them feel miserable because they got to know you and they now have to deal with it. Would their suffering be an argument for your suicide? Does their bliss after your suicide even matter? Probably not, even because (for the sake of the argument) we may assume you never intended to hurt them in the first place.

Now, imagine you live a horrible life, you hate yourself and you want to die. Horrible, right? Not really. For some reason, everyone else thinks you're lovely, and would like to have you around them. Your existence alone is enough to make them feel better because they got to know you and got attached to you. Would their pleasure be an argument against your suicide? Would their sorrow after your suicide even matter? If it didn't matter in the paragraph above, it surely doesn't apply to this case.

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I don't know about all that. I think it's one of the most selfish things a person could do. Taking the easy way out and leaving family and loved ones behind confused and devastated is terrible imo.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 I don't know about all that. I think it's one of the most selfish things a person could do. Taking the easy way out and leaving family and loved ones behind confused and devastated is terrible imo.

I find this sort of mourning nearly as unfair as the schadenfreude I mentioned in my counter-example: if someone goes as far as taking their own life because they couldn't take the pain any longer, is it fair for anyone to wish this person went on living? Doesn't this strike you as selfish?

The only good argument I know against suicide is the fact that it's, more often than not, an act carried out solely on bad faith: you believe your life won't change, therefore it's not worth living. You can't know that and, if you're living a hard life, chances are you're not in a good position to rule this possibility out. Your life may, in fact, turn out to be a good one in the end. By committing suicide you deny yourself the opportunity of finding out whether or not things would really improve.

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If your family or loved ones care enough to be that distraught over your committing suicide, then you most certainly have something to live for IMO. Killing yourself is almost like telling them that their love wasn't enough.

Maybe their love wasn't enough?

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Originally posted by srussell0018 If your family or loved ones care enough to be that distraught over your committing suicide, then you most certainly have something to live for IMO. Killing yourself is almost like telling them that their love wasn't enough.

Stu's question is right on but, if you think about it, maybe their love wasn't what the person needed.

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Well that's just silly.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 Well that's just silly.

Here's an example I was thinking of when I wrote that: My grandma's late husband (never met him, don't worry) killed himself because he found out he had an inoperable brain tumour. The reason why he off'ed himself had nothing to do with my grandmother's feelings for him, and she cared a lot for him.

Would you say that, by committing suicide, he told my grandmother (and everyone else around him) that her love for him wasn't enough? That wasn't even relevant in the context.

Edit: Typo.

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I would say it's not necessarily that their love for him wasn't enough, but I still think it's selfish any way you try to construe it.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 I would say it's not necessarily that their love for him wasn't enough, but I still think it's selfish any way you try to construe it.

That's a common feeling against suicide, and it's quite understandable, I'd say. I just take it to be somewhat circular if it is to be used as an argument against suicide.

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Originally posted by Lira Here's an example I was thinking of when I wrote that: My grandma's late husband (never met him, don't worry) killed himself because he found out he had an inoperable brain tumour. The reason why he off'ed himself had nothing to do with my grandmother's feelings for him, and she cared a lot for him. Would you say that, by committing suicide, he told my grandmother (and everyone else around him) that her love for him wasn't enough? That wasn't even relevant in the context. Edit: Typo.

I'm not even sure if it needs to be context specific, to be honest.

A person's life is their own, to do with as they please. If they don't want to live, then they shouldn't be forced to

Your post though, Lira, brings up a slightly different issue as well - That of euthanasia. Is assisted suicide wrong as well? Is it necessarily different from regular suicide? Now, it seems, is where the context comes into play. For me, anyway, due to another party being directly involved with the death.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk I'm not even sure if it needs to be context specific, to be honest. A person's life is their own, to do with as they please. If they don't want to live, then they shouldn't be forced to

That's pretty much how I see it myself, but I'm clearly part of a minority here where I live. Pretty much everyone I've met shares Russell's concern, which I'd say is a quite logical one.

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Your post though, Lira, brings up a slightly different issue as well - That of euthanasia. Is assisted suicide wrong as well? Is it necessarily different from regular suicide? Now, it seems, is where the context comes into play. For me, anyway, due to another party being directly involved with the death.

I tend to be even easier on euthanasia (because my argument on bad faith becomes terribly weaker), though I do have my reservations (because, who knows, in some cases the disease may somehow be cured).

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