I like Obama, too. Remember that time Obamacare turned the civilized world's worst healthcare system (yes, our healthcare system was THAT bad) into something at least acceptable in the progressive world? Yeah, I wish it was Single-Payer too, but that's not happening. Ever.

He's overall been a good president. He's done a lot of great things for this country up until recently, particularly after the 112th Congress was elected and decided they would just block all of Obama's effots toward repairing our country.

As far as "freeloaders" go, here's what comprises most of those people:

1. Seniors
2. Students who receive Pell Grants
3. People who RECENTLY lost a job

Yeah... not so sure I'd call these people freeloaders.

___________________
Do you believe in a God that tells you lies,
Or do you believe in me?

http://www.soundcloud.com/danielnusdeo

All I have to say on this topic is...

In Stupid We Trust!

___________________
...e d u bb z...

quote:

Originally posted by AY STAR i dont really talk politics, nor do i care

this!

quote:

Originally posted by SebG BTW the most important rule that i have learned is not to talk Politics & Religion with friends...

and this!

___________________
Electronic Night Life
<3

Derp.

Last edited by Lufelia on Sep-20-2012 at 14:56

quote:

Originally posted by DOOMBOT Does not compute.

I don't know, are you equating people with government jobs as dependent freeloaders? Their benefits and pay are kickass, but what's the problem with that?? We should all strive to be as comfortable financially as someone with a government job.

I work as an architect. If we had a union, I'd join one, but we don't. So I work 11 hours a day with no overtime or retirement package, and barely any lunch break to speak of. That's not a way to live, that's a way for companies to treat us like animals because they can. So, public workers have it better than us? Should we demonize them, or demonize the system we're stuck in that takes advantage of us, and try and work toward change?

Both my parents worked public jobs, and were allowed an awesome standard of living which I don't currently have or see for myself on the horizon in my field. Right now, for young workers in the new work force, it's the Wild Wild West out there. Anything goes, worker's rights have gone to shit. With mentalities of people like Romney and companies he's worked for, this will only get worse. Don't get me wrong though, I don't think Obama's making it any better.

___________________
The boys are back in town....

quote:

Originally posted by Neonbeats Say what you want about Obama, but he truly cares about helping all Americans and bringing us together.

That's debatable. His amazing speeches surely make us think this is the case but his record says otherwise.

Honestly, behind all the rah rah cheerleading speeches and public relations moves he's made this ELECTION YEAR, he's continued a lot of Bush's policies the past 3 years, under the radar of course.

Also, they compared a list of campaign donors from the healthcare, weapons, and banking sectors, and a large chunk of the ones who gave money to Obama these past two times are on the record as having contributed similarly to Bush's two campaigns. Tells you something, huh...

There's still 84,000 troops in Afghanistan, more than DOUBLE the amount that was there before he took office!!! haha.. Add to that, increased involvement in Libya, Egypt, and his staff circle-jerking with Israel to bang the war drums for Iran. The weapons companies love him, man.. The healthcare corporations LOVE him, as do the banksters. It's all PR bullshit, the speeches are all misleading for people who can't digest information or news by themselves and need Obama's babyfaced words to inspire them into a brainwashed state.

And just to add, what I'm also saying is that it's extremely sad that I can safely say Romney's WORSE... That's really sad for the state of our country, and the next 4 years. We're in trouble..

___________________
The boys are back in town....

quote:

Originally posted by StrobeLifeNYC I don't know, are you equating people with government jobs as dependent freeloaders? Their benefits and pay are kickass, but what's the problem with that?? We should all strive to be as comfortable financially as someone with a government job. I work as an architect. If we had a union, I'd join one, but we don't. So I work 11 hours a day with no overtime or retirement package, and barely any lunch break to speak of. That's not a way to live, that's a way for companies to treat us like animals because they can. So, public workers have it better than us? Should we demonize them, or demonize the system we're stuck in that takes advantage of us, and try and work toward change? Both my parents worked public jobs, and were allowed an awesome standard of living which I don't currently have or see for myself on the horizon in my field. Right now, for young workers in the new work force, it's the Wild Wild West out there. Anything goes, worker's rights have gone to shit. With mentalities of people like Romney and companies he's worked for, this will only get worse. Don't get me wrong though, I don't think Obama's making it any better.

Look, it's clear that you have an emotional attachment to the issue, so I'd rather not get into this sort of debate with you. SebG made a good point about discussing this sort of thing with friends and I see a lot of you guys out when I visit NYC to party, so I'd rather not make things awkward and just apologize now for even commenting the way that I did to AY Star, because I really wasn't looking to pick a fight.

I wasn't really trying to spark this big of a political debate, I just figured that all the techno-heads in NYC simply MUST hate Mitt Romney

Really though, I don't judge people based on their political beliefs (except maybe the super-religious right, because SECULARISM). I don't get offended in these types of conversations, I simply do the best job I can at making the point for my side.

As far as the Obama debate goes, it's easy to choose to concentrate on either just the good, or just the bad. Overall, I think if you look at his entire four years in office, and factor in the mess Bush left him and the 112th Congress that refuses to pass ANY legislature (they're seriously the worst thing to happen to this country since The Great Depression), Obama has done a fine job overall. Sure, certain things his administration has done haven't been the best choices, but I think in this particular situation the good far outweighs the bad.


Lastly, someone brought up campaign donations from big corporations. This is something I feel compelled to squash.

#1 - Yes, of course Obama is going to be receiving donations from large corporations. The corporations themselves must keep all doors open.

#2 - Yes, Mitt Romney and Obama have both received donations from some of the same corporations. As stated above, the corporations themselves like to have a foot in the door with either candidate. Whether or not their contributions actually buy them the sway they want is debatable and varies between administrations, but donations themselves prove nothing.

#3 - Obama has, for quite a while now, advocated overturning Citizen's United. If he was really being "bought" by all these corporations, he certainly wouldn't be advocating an amendment to disallow these corporations from donating to him. In 2008 Obama raised a ridiculous amount of money WITHOUT Citizen's United. Those were fair donations, like the $6 I contributed. That sort of campaign finance--the kind that comes in small amounts from many citizens--is perfectly fine. Letting these corporations donate millions to a single campaign is what's ridiculous. Corporations are not people, and Obama recognizes that. Perhaps if he had a Congress he could work with, some new measures to trump Citizen's United could be made. But until November, we're at a stalemate.



TL;DR- Look at the facts, and Obama is a decent president. Speculate on subjective matters like the intentions of campaign finance, and the opinion could sway either way.

___________________
Do you believe in a God that tells you lies,
Or do you believe in me?

http://www.soundcloud.com/danielnusdeo

quote:

Originally posted by StrobeLifeNYC he's continued a lot of Bush's policies the past 3 years, under the radar of course.

After Bush put us into a serious recession, extending his tax-cuts was absolutely the only way to keep us from taking a further dive. You can't restore taxes to a higher rate during a recession, that's how things like The Great Depression happen. Yes, we all need to pay higher taxes, but the economy needs to stabilize first. As far as the other Bush-era legislature, the NDAA Indefinite Detention thing was vetoed by Obama a month after it was initially signed, meaning that portion of the act no longer exists.

As far as the military presence in other countries is concerned, it's REALLY not as cut and dry as "just pull all the troops out." Once we're in there we've taken the responsibility of finishing the job we started. The US can't simply uproot a dictator and then leave a polarized country full of religious hotheads to their own devices. As far as I'm concerned, Obama is doing the best he can with a war that he voted AGAINST in the first place (check his record, he was one of very few Senators that voted 'no' on the Iraq war).

quote:

Originally posted by StrobeLifeNYC The healthcare corporations LOVE him, as do the banksters

Obamacare significantly reduced healthcare pressures on the middle class and the poor. Yes, real liberals like myself know that a single-payer system would be significantly better than what we have now. However, how is a single-payer system EVER going to happen in America? Is the US government just going to tell all the insurance companies "time to shut down, we have no use for you anymore!" These are more factors that would contribute to a depression in America. Perhaps one day many years from now we'll be able to progress to a better healthcare system, but for now we have to modify the one we have to make all parties happy. Not that I'm defending the insurance companies, they can go fuck themselves. The point is that we can't just suddenly destroy them, or it will hurt us all.

Annnnd the Banksters. The bailout Obama provided to the banks is being payed back to the US Government with interest. Meaning it wasn't a bailout. It was a loan. So all the Republican banter about "NO MORE BAILOUTS!!!" is absolutely ridiculous. It'll be a little while before we can see the true effects of Dodd-Frank, but my prediction is that it will be a little underwhelming and we may need even more regulation... particularly in the "Too Big to Fail" category.

___________________
Do you believe in a God that tells you lies,
Or do you believe in me?

http://www.soundcloud.com/danielnusdeo

Heeyyyyy

___________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/sebaschn

I don't pay taxes, I don't work. Because the government won't let me.

What a piece of freeloading asshole I turned out to be.

quote:

Originally posted by SebG Heeyyyyy

my thoughts exactly.