quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney good sounding bass is not a matter of power especially for small rooms. You need to deal with standing waves with bass traps or source position. The problem in every case is too much power. Running 2 subs in phase for more bass won't do a fucking thing for bass management. It will merely accentuate the room modes making things sound even worse.

Yes room acoustics is major piece of the puzzle, but I thought that would be too advanced for this thread.

Your incorrect about the 2nd sub accentuating room modes, as it does the exact opposite and smooths peaks and valleys of the first sub. Even more so when you run them in independent positions. There are numerous benefits of running multiple subs, you should check it out.

not if they are in phase as I mentioned. Which was implicit given your mention of power. I also stated that they were in phase acknowledging your argument that one will not present enough power. . I know more than one should know about acoustics. You are wrong regarding that sub not being adequate in terms of power. The benefit of using multiple bass sources to influence axial room modes is not really being discussed or worth being discussed as I doubt he is going to get more subs.

There is long discussion with another in the production forum regarding the concept of strategic placement of multiple subs to mitigate bass issues that bass trapping doesn't seem to fix. First page.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Dec-05-2012 at 19:45

Your subs should always be in phase, whether they're next to each other or on opposite sides of the room. I get what your thinking... but a second sub (if identical to the first sub) will always add 6dB of headroom AND will smooth the frequency response of the room.

Here's a good article from a respected source: Geddes Subs

srussell0018 - you're planning on buying nice front speakers, a nice reciever, but a cheap sub. So naturally your going to be lacking in the bass dept. You should think about pairing those speakers with a comparable sub, something in the $800-1200 range. And consider multiple good subs if you want to impress. Your room is big, so a cheap 10" sub is not going to cut it.

For me is mostly about 2ch stereo music experience with my Rotel and B&W setup -> helps me (to some extend) get a sweet spot between production (headphones/speakers) and casual listener home setup - trust me, this make big difference on the end of my project.

Cheers

___________________
I like that freedom with no boundaries, no restrictions, no rules setup by somebody else – it's only me and my music.

SoundCloud

Traxsource

Beatport

Facebook

DariusX Page

I have some Polk 40s that have been in their box for a year because I am too retarded to wire them. In fact, now I need a new keyboard because I just drooled all over mine.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by spanglo Your subs should always be in phase, whether they're next to each other or on opposite sides of the room. I get what your thinking... but a second sub (if identical to the first sub) will always add 6dB of headroom AND will smooth the frequency response of the room.

the only way it will smooth the frequency response is by placing them in a manner that produces phase distortion reducing the perception of room mode resonances. If they are in phase, they are summing, your peaks and nulls will only be accentuated. So no , you are are incorrect. That article also contradicts what you say. You are also incorrect regarding the doubling of power. It depends where you place them. You have to account for the proximity effect and phase. And since much of the bass range in terms of wave length is longer than your room, it is impossible to get this sort of doubling unless you have them inside each other. And head room and frequency smoothing have nothing to do with each other. You are using the term out of context.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Dec-05-2012 at 20:14

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney the only way it will smooth the frequency response is by placing them in a manner that produces phase distortion reducing the perception of room mode resonances. If they are in phase, they are summing, your peaks and nulls will only be accentuated. So no , you are are incorrect. That article also contradicts what you say. You are also incorrect regarding the doubling of power. It depends where you place them. You have to account for the proximity effect and phase. And since much of the bass range in terms of wave length is longer than your room, it is impossible to get this sort of doubling unless you have them inside each other. And head room and frequency smoothing have nothing to do with each other. You are using the term out of context.

Not.

"One cool thing is that subs sum coherently (in-phase) below the modal region. So while small subs may not individually have very much output, efficiency goes up tremendously through the use of multiples. Note, however, that multiple subs will not smooth the response down low. The modes are just too sparse. Smoothing only happens in the modal region. Most music has fundamentals in the modal region, but relatively little music has fundamental tones much below 50Hz or so. (Which is not to say that below 50Hz is unimportant, only that it is relatively less important than the 50-200 Hz octave pair.)"

He specifically says it smooths in the modal region, but absolutely no mention of accentuation. When he talks about summing coherently, he's talking about output not frequency response.

notice how he mentions phase and efficiency ? which has nothing to do with favourable response. He is talking about using smaller subs to get a louder signal. Unfortunately any sub that is in phase with another will boost the peaks and accentuate the nulls. It is called addition. If you plan to use multiple subs for bass management rather than loudness, you need to place them strategically and generally out of phase to some level. it would be silly to say in phase as this is physically impossible to do. He states that summing prescribed will not help with bass response.

Regarding your last sentence. Output and frequency are irrevocably linked. Summing a peak has a frequency component.

btw , the articles you provided are based mostly on work by Toole which sort of hammers home the importance of phase and how it isn't a good thing for bass if you are just summing the problems which given the room size is a guarantee.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney notice how he mentions phase and efficiency ? which has nothing to do with favourable response.

Really? Then why did say in the same paragraph the that smoothing happens in the modal region? According to you if they were in phase like he mentioned then it would accentuate the modes, not smooth them. But there was no mention of multiple subs degrading frequency response - ever. There's a very good reason for that.

What I originally stated holds true: multiple subs = greater output and better frequency response.

Okay guys, enough with the cock wagging. I don't understand any of what you're saying anyways.

My living room is about 25'-15' give or take.
Ready go.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by OrangestO This isn't about physics, this is about waves.

Look at all the audio engineers in here...some of u should be installing high end systems for...money

quote:

Originally posted by spanglo What I originally stated holds true: multiple subs = greater output and better frequency response.

if output is correlated with better frequency response, why do so many theatres , studios and home theatres spend thousands on bass trapping. Why not just let the bass accrue. The biggest issue in bass management is always and has always been too much bass. Too much energy that doesn't defuse like higher frequencies.

You are wrong. You don't seem to understand the physics behind audio to read the article and not extract meaning that is not stated. Multiple subs can help but not for the reasons you stated.

you also don't seem to understand room modes I don't really want to argue with you. You cannot smooth audio energy by addition. It doesn't get any simpler than that . Smoothing requires a peak to "smooth", you don't solve an excess of energy by adding more.

You also cannot have subs in phase. A simple look at the first 3-4 room modes will show you why. There will be phase distortion no matter where you place it.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest