they don't null when you start adding channels , groups and complicated mixes. Would not say it is something that sounds better or worse but you aren't getting the same output.

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quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney they don't null when you start adding channels , groups and complicated mixes. Would not say it is something that sounds better or worse but you aren't getting the same output.

This. Not every DAW just adds up the noise as straightforward as one would expect. Thus there are minute differences. There are some DAW's in which it is blatantly obvious they do something with the audio which sometimes depends on settings (Reason and Ableton for example), or at other times is kept completely under the hood (Older versions of Reason for example).

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

Last edited by Storyteller on Mar-18-2013 at 10:45

Ok, probably right, but let's rephrase then, all CURRENT daws that support 32bit float, on unity gain, without tinkering with automation, EQ, plugins or subgroups, will summ the same

Older daws might have been supporting only 24bit, or even 16bit, had issues with automation like "zipper noise" or built in saturation curves to adress internal clipping before the 24/32bit landmark.

A daw is not magical, its just math, if a daw can't summ clean and straightforward it's got a design issue.

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Last edited by Raphie on Mar-18-2013 at 12:09

every engineer ive ever met says pro tools sums more "true" than any other daw...

is there any truth to that?

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quote:

Originally posted by Allied Nations every engineer ive ever met says pro tools sums more "true" than any other daw... is there any truth to that?

No. The "summing" engine is nothing more than the DAW adding together numbers. Computers don't mess this up. Refer to Raphie's post.

quote:

Originally posted by jayxthekoolest No. The "summing" engine is nothing more than the DAW adding together numbers. Computers don't mess this up. Refer to Raphie's post.

ok but then how does the summ change with EQ + efx etc? if i put the same waves comp onto a protools channel as i do an ableton channel whats the difference there? raphies post only covers the most basic of summing, which in all honesty i dont think anyone is doing

maybe on paper its the same but if i put the same stems into ableton as i do into protools no nothing on top it still sounds different in protools

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Fortuna Favet Fortibus.

[shit sentence alert]
Honestly I think it's quite unlikely that if 10 stems or so summed down into a DAW and then null-tested against sums done by other sequencers will result in a completely nulled wave file.[/shit sentence alert]

If it's a perceivable difference or not is up for debate .

Bloody foreign languages.

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller [shit sentence alert] Honestly I think it's quite unlikely that if 10 stems or so summed down into a DAW and then null-tested against sums done by other sequencers will result in a completely nulled wave file.[/shit sentence alert] If it's a perceivable difference or not is up for debate . Bloody foreign languages.

Fair enough. I'm too lazy to try that though.

To go back to the all DAWs sound the same or sum the same etc, it's simply not true. Yes, the strict math involved in coding summing may well be the same but that is just one small part of the overall sound of the daw.

As others have pointed out, the moment it's more than just summing, there are actually varied and significant variables that make each one sound different from another;

Pan laws are not the same in all daws - in fact one of the biggest mistakes people switching from PTHD to Logic or vice versa is not realizing that the default pans laws are different.

Audio with relation to tempo - import a sample in to ableton and then do the same in logic and the same in cubase. If there's any time stretching to tempo for that sample then they all use different algorithms to do this.

VST/AU do not do the same thing in each platform or even between passes in the same DAW. Ever wondered why Logic and PT have record on second as a print option?

Some even handle the timing of audio samples and instruments differently meaning tiny delays in introduced - they;re minute but you can hear them as an overall difference.

These are just the major ones, and if you get nay complex mixes with automation, eq's, groups, sub groups, auxes, VCA fader groups, delay compensation....well, you're never going to get a null results from a comparison between two DAWS.

Does it matter? Not really. Changing your soundcard will probably have a 100 times the perceivable effect over changing platforms. This is believe where the statement about protools sounding the most true comes from: it's not most "true" as such, just "dead". The PTHD hardware just sounds clean but really dead and clinical.

Back On Topic:

The new video cards were just announced for the new mac pros, and word is, we can expect a new Mac Pro launch in the next 8 weeks, with Logic x schedule for around the same time. CANNOT FUCKING WAIT

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Ok, probably right, but let's rephrase then, all CURRENT daws that support 32bit float, on unity gain, without tinkering with automation, EQ, plugins or subgroups, will summ the same Older daws might have been supporting only 24bit, or even 16bit, had issues with automation like "zipper noise" or built in saturation curves to adress internal clipping before the 24/32bit landmark. A daw is not magical, its just math, if a daw can't summ clean and straightforward it's got a design issue.

24 bit and 32 float are the same. One is for bad engineers , the other is for professionals. But the resolution is identical.

And math is done different ways. As soon as you start making a mix slightly complicated, things are never equal. For example,

The take home message is that a professional can make a hit record sound great using reason, fruity loops or logic with stock plugins. The DAW is about workflow. I mean considering the final format, talking about DAW output is kinda ridiculous. I get some fields that work at high sample rates, but like, i mean if some guy that did no recording was mixing at 192 KHz because of the "Air" i would sell him insurance. The simple fact is most adults can't hear above 12 Khz. Almost all these comments are just unfounded, untested gut feelings that usually boil down to buyer prejudice. My 6000$ apogee sympjhony interface sounds no better than my old rme UCs. I doubt anyone could. I can however feel better that my interface is out of reach of most minorities and i can record ridiculous amounts of tracks at hte same time at 192 Khz which obviously will never happen. My hearing is rather good for my age. I spent hours doing those drills for audio engineers back in the day. I only listen to music on quality references. I think most people are just blowing smoke. I can hear the natural resonances in my ear, i have perfect pitch, and I have been listening to audio critically for about 11 years. My ears aint bad. And if my ears are like my fingers, which are magic, then i would say they are probably better than most.

SO when a 40 year old starts talking about the magical top end of a fucking cable, well you kinda wonder, umm, you can't hear above 8 khz, and you have long hair. And i think you are full of shit.

I would say maybe 1 out of like 100000 has golden ears. The rest are just deluding themselves. That aint me, i knew one guy at school that played the oboe. Out of hundreds, this guy had golden ears. 24 and could hear 20 khz tones. And we fucking ran him thru the gauntlet. But he had bad BO. So , i mean do you want to smell great and have a nice ass or hear tones nobody else hears except dogs and Raphie's wife. Don't worry, the fire department is on the way.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Mar-23-2013 at 03:40