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| quote: | Originally posted by Paradox Lost
If this is what all that content comes down to, then I'm just going to take it upon myself to add my own perspective to this discussion by addressing this one point. Whether or not Oakenfold is a decent DJ (and I find it hilarious that someone has to put up such a deeply impassioned argument in defense of his mediocrity) depends upon the musical values of the person you ask. If you're asking someone who emphasizes technical proficiency above all else- who demands more of a DJ then to simply blend in and out- then no, Oakenfold is subpar, and only when he's not a dismal failure. When he's not train wrecking, he's barely stitching things together in the most perfunctory way possible. Sure, he has moments of 'woah, what was that?,' and 'hey, that was pretty cool,' but so does your average bedroom DJ, and Oakenfold's technical competency is little better than that.
But those aren't my values, as track selection and sequencing go much further for me than turntable acrobatics, and Oakenfold- among the genres he plays (or played)- had always proved such a reliable pleasure in those two categories. He knows what sounds good, what sounds good when paired with other things that sound good, and where to make it all sound great. But I also have to believe I'd enjoy him so much more if he wasn't either so lazy or incapable behind the decks, and since 'not train wrecking' it not the same thing as 'playing well,' that weighs against him, which leaves me believing him to be squarely decent.
So I think you could and should bypass any arguments that relate to his botched mixes, for aside from it being an argument you simply cannot win, I think there are other, better lines you could take if you want to demonstrate this person as deserving of his reputation. |
I completely agree with this and I think the point is being obfuscated; He could technically mix (albeit ntohing to write hom about most of the time) having seen him several times without this apparent constant trainwrecking as was being asserted.
Certainly not the best on in terms of ability but enough to ply his trade which was at times playing music that made you take notice and doing mixes that were pretty fucking great. He was one of those DJ's (dare I say it) that could take you on journey and
the point I was making was you don't get to where he got to by some clever marketing ploys and not being able to mix without trainwrecking.
| quote: | Originally posted by 2techs
Oakenfold in his heyday was a good mixer, good enough to get 95% on a mixing test. Who cares about the errors? Anyone who tries to nitpick his transitions should just stop for a moment and consider this for 2 solitary seconds: there's no fucking BPM counter, sync button, and a bunch of other helpful crap on technics. you're on your own when you're mixing on turntables, and even if the transitions aren't as tight as they should be, slack should be given especially if the tunes are good and you're having a good time.
All the Oakenfold haters in a nutshell, are saying that he was overrated. I'd say he was rated as he deserved to be, the #1 DJ in the world.
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Again, I agree. This is where the historical context doesn't get represented. CDJ's barely existed and were in terms of function far more limited that what you could do with technics.
Furthermore, there were literally only one or two DJ's who were considered flawless in the mixing department; Sasha being on the only one that most people could agree on. People gave less of a shit in those of you klanged a mix because there weren't many people who could DJ and your skills were more based on track selection and building a set. Now everyone's a DJ and everyone can beatmatch or use a sync button.
| quote: | Originally posted by subtle
SYSTEM-J is just as big a Oakie hater as he claims others to be Oakie fanboys, there is no point in arguing with him. He has already made up his mind.. Oakenfold is the worst, most talent-less DJ/Producer in the world and anything good he did was a couple of tunes in the 90s, and he cannot mix for anything in the world.
For me half the things he has done and is still doing is good /great and the other half is bad. Thats for me a 50% success rate, and no other producer or DJ comes close to that for me. Look at what Tiesto and Armin is doing its all utter shit! zero percentage.
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While I'm not sure Jack is an out and out Oakie hater, I think he doesn't have the perspective to understand what he was doing musically that was so different and unique or what he achieved. Therefore, Jack's opinion to me focused on a few bad mixes out there and the wash/sell out he is now.
I totally agree though that many of the things he did post the golden age have been of pure detriment to his reputation, but in some ways I don't blame him. He's less of a sell out than someone like Tiesto and the bottom line is if you helped create a scene then you get first dibs on cashing in. Not what I'd do, but it's life.
| quote: | Originally posted by System-J
I fully understand the weight Oakenfold had at the time. If anything, you've not given him his full historical credit because what he did around 1988-90 was far more important when it comes to the history of dance music and rave culture. I'm not going to deny that Oakenfold was a hugely popular DJ or even that he was a hugely important one. However, that doesn't really have much relevance on whether or not he was very good, which is something you don't really seem to be following here.
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I don't think you do and your posts about the period in question suggest I'm right. I do give him the credit but not as much as some other people though; That magical holiday story  - we've all heard the carefully regurgitated holiday of a group of guys "stumbling" across ibiza in late 80's (yawn) but a lot of it is bullshit legend.
Oakenfold was an A&R exec. It's no mistake he was in Ibiza. You realize he's the guy we've got to thank for Will Smith? Yes, fresh prince. He first signed him in the mid 80's and later brought him and Jazzy Jeff to Rusell Simmon's Jive records.
One of my friends was actually there with them (she's in the Club Tropicana video filmed at Pikes a few years before and went every summer thereafter). It wasn't some random holiday in 1987, tons of music industry people had been going every year and made a point to copy what the local DJ's were doing as it was going to be the next big thing.
Apparently the only person who really hasn't totally guilded the past on that one was Danny Rampling. Fair enough though, they brought it to the UK and founded the scene back home. SO much as I give Oakenfold credit for the club he founded, it's not quite the story those boys put out there.
Again, this is nothing you can read in history text as it's written by the people who win and shout loudest.
| quote: | Originally posted by subtle
I stated the most of Oakenfold's productions weren't very good. You responded with a string of statistics, as if telling me he released 25 singles in a decade or sold a certain number of copies is going to somehow change the way his productions sound. I reiterate my point and you respond with talking about how popular he was, how he was Magazine X & Ys DJ of the year, again as if any of that is really relevant to what I said. As with any Oakenfold acolyte (and by the way, please do let me know when you decide it's time to start claiming you're "trolling") your response to any criticism leans almost exclusively on the "first DJ on the moon" rhetoric, as if the exact same argument couldn't be used on behalf of someone like David Guetta today.
Quite simply, I don't care how popular Oakenfold was in 1998. I care how well his productions and his DJing stand up today. The simple fact is the number of people who were there at the time in 1998 is only going to slowly diminish, and the number of people who only know Oakenfold in retrospect is only going to increase. That's the same as The Beatles, as Pink Floyd, as Chopin, as anyone else. Most of us weren't there at the time, and what is relevant is how well they stand up today. As I said previously, Oakenfold was probably the club scene's greatest ever A&R man, disguised as a DJ. His achievements almost entirely revolve around jumping on new trends and exploiting them - taking sounds other people pioneered and popularising them, taking records other labels put out and re-licensing them, and so on.
If you separate the "first DJ in space" rhetoric and actually just discuss his productions on their own merits, most of them are pretty terrible. Most of what he did in the '90s comprises of Perfecto remixes, and the only Grace single worth a toss in its unremixed form is Orange, which is a repurposed Perfecto remix of U2 - Lemon anyway. So really, I'm not actually being that harsh. The majority of his productions under his own name actually came in the '00s, a period in which even his defenders would say he lost the plot. I suppose I should extend my credit to acknowledging some of the Happy Mondays tracks, although I imagine most people in this thread would turn their nose up at the likes of Kinky Afro.
I'm not going to get into the DJing because each post would end up being about 10,000 words long, and it doesn't really have anything to do with this thread or my original post. If you want to hear the huge fuck-ups on the GU comps, listen to Music -> Setting Stone on GU:004 (not only completely out of time but also horrendously out of key, creating perhaps the most ugly transition I've ever heard on a CD) or Paradise -> Greece 2000 on GU:007 (cueing on the second beat of a bar, the kind of mistake you'd be embarrassed to make after 6 months of practise in the bedroom). Most of his other compilations (such as Tranceport) were mixed in ProTools, which is why they don't contain any technical errors (although the mixing is still laughably basic in many cases).
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The point you're missing is that his popularity / success was not some enduring random fluke or just an endless string of amazing marketing techniques that kept him on top for over a decade - it was because he played well, and made great records and compilations - that's what made and kept him popular.
It was a case of good music + success + business savvy = popularity & opportunities that no one else go close to for years.
You can't exclude one of these factors from the other, and that's why I referenced his success - not as some simplistic validation of "I must be right because he released a couple of dozen singles" - it was because he released music that people liked and that made him popular.
You may not think he was any good but millions of people did and A) they were there at the time, and B) the proof is in the fact he came in to the scene in 1987 and in 1998 he was the popular DJ in the world. That can't happen in a bubble devoid of talent. Every other DJ ****** has copied his model since and made it even more grotesque in their form.
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