everyone should start their own religion, you get a nifty tax-break

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huh?

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Originally posted by quddha lol @ Izzy. That made me laugh out loud, better than most of the things in the humour forum. You come up wtih that yourself?

no i wish i was funny enough to invent something like that it was sent to me by someone by email and i've kept it for the past year... finally found a good place for its use

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

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Originally posted by Verona^My isn't this the case with most religions though? I'm sure it's not unique to the Christian religion.

Yup, the same is true for Islam. When I used to be Islamic, everyone (Muslims) would be saying that they FOLLOW the Qur'an as their "guide to life" and everything outside of it is wrong. You can't eat pork, have a girlfriend/boyfriend, etc. Who made all this up? CERTAINALY not what they call "Allah" (God in Arabic). It was all man-made thoughts. THAT'S ALL.

As a Christian I’m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this.

Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred.

Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don’t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn’t instill these ideas.

Weber, a sociologist claimed that without Christianity Capitalism would not have come to be. When Luther posted 95 theses and broke away from the Catholic Church he created new denominations of Christianity. From this a man named Calvin derived from the Bible the idea in prep-destination. This means that God already knows those souls who are going to be saved. Not everyone would be saved however some people who be saved. The Calvinists figured that a way to find out if they were saved was be success while on earth. Many Calvinists began to enter the business sector and worked very hard to create lots of money. There were not interested in the profit rather they were interested in that if they got that profit which would tell them that they would be saved. Success on earth was a sign from God that Heaven would be their destination.

Having been an atheist who has ‘see the light’ I understand both sides. I have no intention of promoting Christianity; rather I want all of you to be more informed about the religion. In fact, many Christians say they don’t belong to a religion because religion is a social construct. Rather it is a relationship with God that transcends everything.

I could quote the Bible yet that would have little effect on any atheists because most don’t understand that it is more then a book. Rather this quote puts every thing into perspective.

You can live a few days without water, a few weeks without food but not a moment without faith!!!

Hope my thoughts enter yours and you can see religion from a different angle!

God Bless,
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I’m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this. Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred. Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don’t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn’t instill these ideas. Weber, a sociologist claimed that without Christianity Capitalism would not have come to be. When Luther posted 95 theses and broke away from the Catholic Church he created new denominations of Christianity. From this a man named Calvin derived from the Bible the idea in prep-destination. This means that God already knows those souls who are going to be saved. Not everyone would be saved however some people who be saved. The Calvinists figured that a way to find out if they were saved was be success while on earth. Many Calvinists began to enter the business sector and worked very hard to create lots of money. There were not interested in the profit rather they were interested in that if they got that profit which would tell them that they would be saved. Success on earth was a sign from God that Heaven would be their destination. Having been an atheist who has ‘see the light’ I understand both sides. I have no intention of promoting Christianity; rather I want all of you to be more informed about the religion. In fact, many Christians say they don’t belong to a religion because religion is a social construct. Rather it is a relationship with God that transcends everything. I could quote the Bible yet that would have little effect on any atheists because most don’t understand that it is more then a book. Rather this quote puts every thing into perspective. You can live a few days without water, a few weeks without food but not a moment without faith!!! Hope my thoughts enter yours and you can see religion from a different angle! God Bless, Mark

i follow much of what you are saying, insomuch as i understand it.

your 'facts' youve provided are only in support of Christianity. this is one of the issues that was just brought up, and one of the issues that concerns me with organized religion - and specifically Christianity. religion has ALWAYS been a part of human society, at least as long as culture has played a part. the same goes for storytelling, drug use, socialization.

it wasnt the 'breakthrough' of Christianity that spurred some great change in the world. to this point it has become possibly the most influential religion in the world, but that does not mean it was the only one - nor even 'correct'.

you point to Weber as influential in documenting the formation of capitalism in regards to Christianity, but this is negligible point. most Western philosophy has been heavily skewed Christian due to the roots of those writing, and having the ability to write about it. Christianity may have had a part in forming our economy, but it was not the only factor - just as religion is socially constructed, so are all our notions of 'economy'.

i see your reasoning, and its a clever one that takes into account the more philosophical aspects of religion without preaching. i just do not at all agree that one must have a Christian or recognized God in order to have 'faith'.

i think you can have faith in something or your own life without reverting to socially constructed fables and institutions.

thats a highly inflammatory statement to most believers, but it is what i believe


my question for you is: how/why would one 'see the light' and be drawn towards associating differently? (im interested as an agnostic/atheist/unassociated person)

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I’m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this.

Religion itself is not evil. It is the notion of accepting things on faith that is evil. When one accepts something on faith, he or she cannot truly be analyzing it in any rational manner - if they were, it would not be faith. When people have faith in good, productive things, there is no problem. But faith can just as easily be used to cause people to do otherwise unjustifiable acts of violence and hatred. Manifested in such perversion of religion as the crusades, terrorism, and honor killings in Jordan and Pakistan, we can see that while religion can be a powerful tool for good, it is not worth the risk that it might be used for evil.

Imagine someone invented a machine that would allow one to control the minds of others. Clearly this machine would have a multitude of extremely beneficial uses, such as ending conflicts, promoting charity, etc. Used prudently and benevolently, it could solve almost all the worlds problems. Yet, the potential for it being abused is so great, and such a terrifying prospect, that I think we can agree that humanity is better off without this machine. For this reason, I think humanity is better off without religion.

Cheers,

Arbiter

Civilzation itself is based on this "machine". This shows that the machine isn't just something nice with bad side-effects but one of the hallmarks of what we are today. And remember the drug discussion where u pointed out that abolishing drugs due to the possibility of negative effects isn't a valid argument (kid burning himself analogy etc. etc.).
There will always be thieves but o cant abloish property nor legalize crime so u need institutions, laws to controll. Okay, in the case of religion thats impossible.
No point made, bye

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

What gets to me is that Christianity is based on a simple book, the Bible. Writen thousands of years ago, by men.
I find it interesting that females were not part of the writing of the bible.. perhaps things may be percieved differently under the views of a female.....?
But yeah, anyway, these words written in the Bible are supposedly the words of God, but still these words are writen by the hands of a human.. no doubt that Gods words are distorted, and interpreted incorrectly in some instances..
I mean, this point is proven with all the different types of Christianity. We have roman catholic, russian/greek/serb orthodox, protestant, 7th day adventist (or some shit).. Each group interprets the bible differently, so who's to say which way is right? I dunno, confusing topic...

I've got another "theory" too, which some of youz might find interesting.. What would you say that religion, in its current form, is the work of the devil??? I mean, it's obvious that religion has caused soooo much trouble throughout history, true? I dont think it's that stupid to think that the devil has manipulated the human race into turning to good words of God into the work of evil. i mean, it's not that hard for the devil to do, right?
Lets also remember the interesting point that the devil, and subsequently hell itself, was created by God himself... apparently anyway..

I dunno, this whole religion thing screws with my mind.. too complicated.
ciao

quote:

Originally posted by Dupz I've got another "theory" too, which some of youz might find interesting.. What would you say that religion, in its current form, is the work of the devil??? I mean, it's obvious that religion has caused soooo much trouble throughout history, true? I dont think it's that stupid to think that the devil has manipulated the human race into turning to good words of God into the work of evil. i mean, it's not that hard for the devil to do, right? Lets also remember the interesting point that the devil, and subsequently hell itself, was created by God himself... apparently anyway..

the same arguements can be used for a devil.

there is no proof for god just like there is no proof of a devil. when you die it is the end, get over it.

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huh?

quote:

Originally posted by mysticwave As a Christian I’m enjoying reading the comments however much of what I have read lacks any solid support. I shall base my arguments on facts rather than passion as many people have done. Saying that religion is evil is only a fair statement if proper support is given and I have yet to see this.

Having been a former Catholic who has "seen the light," I too understand both sides.

The act of faith implies not knowing. Therefore, to put faith into a certain belief or method carries along with it the possibility of error.

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Religion is entwined in our history. During the early ages Christianity played a vital role. Monasteries were areas of knowledge and many monks spent their lives composing, translating and coping written texts. Literacy was very low and monasteries were the areas in which intellectual growth occurred.

On the contrary, throughout history religion has always served the purpose of seperating people from people. Outwardly it brings about divisions between people, classifications, wars and destruction, which is obvious to anyone who is observant. Inwardly, this identification with an idea is a form of self-expansion. If I identify myself with the greater, it gives me gratification, a purpose, a false sense of well being.

quote:

Descartes is a well known philosopher who argued that God is real. Humans gain knowledge by experience and all that they know is what they have seen, done or heard. All these things are tangible. However God is not. So how do we know that a perfect being exists? God has instilled in each of our minds that He does exists because without Him doing so then we would not have an understanding of a higher power. Atheists claim they don’t believe in God, yet how would they know that a high power is with us if God didn’t instill these ideas.

Why does this "higher power" have to take a Christian form? In his search for the proof of God, Descartes actually seperated himself from the ideas and traditions of the church by trying to rationally prove that God exists based solely on logic. Infact, Descartes was one of the first figures in European history to do so. His "medidation discourses" started the rationalism movement, which has nothing to do with mysticism or Christian theology.

Also, Descartes did not succeed in proving that god exists. All of his arguments (ie Cosmological, Ontological) have notable objections. For one, check the nihilst argument which states that knowledge does not exist. This argument is somewhat extreme but it gives a good comparison. Also, check Guanilo's objection for the argument you mention.

take it easy,
-dave

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sig edited: no political imagery allowed. please reref to the sig guidelines

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Originally posted by TranceGiant And remember the drug discussion where u pointed out that abolishing drugs due to the possibility of negative effects isn't a valid argument (kid burning himself analogy etc. etc.).

That's true, but I think it's a situation where you have to draw a line. It's like the right to bear arms. I doubt even the staunchest gun control advocate would agree that we ought to ban butter knives because they could be used to kill another person, and likewise I suspect none of the NRA's most extreme members would extend the right to bear arms to all citizens such as to include the right to bear nuclear arms.

Matches and drugs can be harmful, but on a much, much smaller scale than, say, weapons of mass destruction. That is why I would argue that the risk incurred by their legalization is justifiable in the name of freedom. But in some cases, the risk is simply too great to be justified, if that makes any sense.

Religion is an issue I'm really torn on because it's so hard to categorize. I mean, you can be "spiritual" but not "religious." When does faith become dangerous? Well, generally it seems to where poverty is high and education is poor, but in reality the issue may be far more complex than that (i.e. it wouldn't explain the perverse attitudes of the extreme religious right in the United States). Religion manifests itself in so many ways, some great, some horrible. I personally think we as humans can reach a point of understanding where religion is no longer so dangerous. But when I look at the world around me, I must conclude that we are far from that point at the moment.