quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic When discussing the Iraq problem, for example, people around me often equates Bush and the US-people, and they often debate from a viewpoint where the US is the great devil. Having discussed this topic in these forums allows me to point out that some US-citizens are *not* pro-Bush and that the intentions of those who are are not necessarily selfishness.

so in other words ANY American who is "pro-Bush" is considered bad (for lack of a better word) to you?

And is protecting our homeland really that selfish?

Is it selfish to think of my fellow country-men (as you put it)or to think of my own family?

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 so in other words ANY American who is "pro-Bush" is considered bad (for lack of a better word) to you? And is protecting our homeland really that selfish? Is it selfish to think of my fellow country-men (as you put it)or to think of my own family?

i think you should spend a bit more time reading posts before responding to them, or work on your once-over reading comprehension... read it again.

hey everyone...this is my first post on this topic..i am american but originally egyptian..here is the way i see things...well being from egypt we had so much terrorist attacks its not even funny..it effected our tourism in economy so bad its ridiculous but did anyone give a fuck nope not at all..although it was a sign of terrorism which been goin on for years before the us got hit..i got very sad by the day of 9.11 but i wondered..why now did people all of a sudden terrorism is in the mainlight and why the war of terrorism didnt occur when other countries got screwed because of it..if the war of terrorism started when other countries got hurt by it wouldnt have we prevented 9.11..or does the big boys have to get hurt so we can care hmmm...another thing what did the afghani strikes accomplish...some would say it got rid of thr taliban but why not we didnt get rid of the taliban and save afghani people before 9.11..or does the big boys have to get hurt so we can care hmmm...and the issue with iraq well it is kinda funny..iraq is like what the us presidents pound on when in trouble..i remembered when clinton confessed to the monica lewinski issue he bombed iraq the second day..that was funny as fuck..and now economic ressesion well then iraq is back in the spotlight..please mr.bush me needs job concentrate on the internal affairs first...well to conclude The USA is a great country and i enjoy livin in it alot..however theie forign policy is weak...but that gives no one the right the judge..when is the last time ur country gave aid to others...all of u talk alot of crap about the us but if u look at ur country ull see that u do little to help others..being from egypt never saw australia or holland help our country but the us surely do...so u have no right to judge unless u do contribute in some way..like someone said look at ur backyard before bitchin about others..if ur house made of glass dont throw stones...u have the right to express ur disagreement but not bashin and bitchin...thanks people..waitin for good feedback..

It's way more simple that you make it look: theres two types of criticism: constructive c. and destructive c.
Constructive criticism is aimed to amend things. To point out what is not good but at the same time to suggest what should be done. Most of the time constructive criticism also seeks to mention the good things which should serve as a postive example or a reletivation of the bad things.
Destructive criticism is criticism for the sake of bashing. Taking negativ aspects only and use them as a legitimation to bash. DC is biased, backed with no arguments and generelasing. Its motives are boredom, jealousy, intellectual laziness or smartas-ism .
I think every1 can easily tell the difference. "bush needs to be killed" is DC. "The Iraq war is a stupid excuse for America's imperialism" is "intelligent" DC. "The Iraq war is IMO unacceptable as it would be simply a war of 'pre-emtive action', a policy dangerous for the future. I therefore think for the sake of the world community, war is only justified when a strong evidence and a real threat exists" is CC (which I dont agree with ).

The majority as you all know are sheeps following trends. The current trend is Criticism on the USA (as it's the country attracting the most attention, besides Israel...as it's the super-power of the world(plitically and economically and especially since 9/11 as it eveloved into the world's sheriff against the terrorist bandits). The sheeps(or sheep? .. ) will just adapt some poor standard-phrases and wont bother too much thinking of a good argumentation. The sheep are the majority, DC is the most common form of criticism.

Enuff said.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 yes i saw their posts...yet what have they accomplished? absolutley nothing....not that they are wrong or even right...just that they are participating in a conversation that ultimatley leads them nowhere....

i understand what you are getting at tiesto14, and thats why ive pulled out of this discussion a bit. it does seem a bit lopsided and fruitless, but...

thankfully, as trancaholic said, and im sure a few more of the more thoughtful TAs understand - some people are listening, even if their views arent instantly swayed. the network were achieving helps more than non communication and we are all learning something|

___________________
'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

Last edited by biznology on Nov-10-2002 at 00:41

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant It's way more simple that you make it look: theres two types of criticism: constructive c. and destructive c. Constructive criticism is aimed to amend things. To point out what is not good but at the same time to suggest what should be done. Most of the time constructive criticism also seeks to mention the good things which should serve as a postive example or a reletivation of the bad things. Destructive criticism is criticism for the sake of bashing. Taking negativ aspects only and use them as a legitimation to bash. DC is biased, backed with no arguments and generelasing. Its motives are boredom, jealousy, intellectual laziness or smartas-ism . I think every1 can easily tell the difference. "bush needs to be killed" is DC. "The Iraq war is a stupid excuse for America's imperialism" is "intelligent" DC. "The Iraq war is IMO unacceptable as it would be simply a war of 'pre-emtive action', a policy dangerous for the future. I therefore think for the sake of the world community, war is only justified when a strong evidence and a real threat exists" is CC (which I dont agree with ). The majority as you all know are sheeps following trends. The current trend is Criticism on the USA (as it's the country attracting the most attention, besides Israel...as it's the super-power of the world(plitically and economically and especially since 9/11 as it eveloved into the world's sheriff against the terrorist bandits). The sheeps(or sheep? .. ) will just adapt some poor standard-phrases and wont bother too much thinking of a good argumentation. The sheep are the majority, DC is the most common form of criticism. Enuff said.

very well put ma man.. lots of DC in the topic..showing lack of intelligence and education...oh well let bigons be bigons

Tiesto14 - you're saying that no argument here can change anybody's perspective so therefore all arguments are pointless?

That's just completely missing the point!

Posting something in here isn't trying to change yours or anybody else's world view - that is based on your life experience, family, friends etc. I agree that reading a single post in here isn't going to radically alter that. But at the same time, that isn't the posting of this place. I come in here to read what other people have to say on topics, think about what they've said and maybe respond.

Listen to more viewpoints, expand your horizons, open your mind. It might do you a world of good!

And for the record as Renegade already said: Australians don't have a problem with Americans on a personal level. It's mainly Bush and his govt that people don't like - though you'd never know it.

If you think Australians do and should blindly follow the USA into its fights across the world, watch the news on Nov 15th. There will be massive protests in Sydney because the WTO is having its "summit."

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quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 yes i saw their posts...yet what have they accomplished? absolutley nothing....not that they are wrong or even right...just that they are participating in a conversation that ultimatley leads them nowhere.

this is the topic i kinda wanted to talk about in the 'stubberness' thread...
i hate to see people come to conclusions like the one you made... open minded people can and do change thier views when presented with a reasonable arguement. more then that its an opprotuniry where one can express his opinions on issues, to have an outlet, and formulate his beliefs.

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy this is the topic i kinda wanted to talk about in the 'stubberness' thread... i hate to see people come to conclusions like the one you made... open minded people can and do change thier views when presented with a reasonable arguement. more then that its an opprotuniry where one can express his opinions on issues, to have an outlet, and formulate his beliefs.

Well, not only that either.

A single argument isn't usually enough to topple beliefs that I've held for a reason (though it can and *has* happened to me) but in a more likely scenario, a perspective that's different from your own makes you think about something that you might consider "old hat" again, and reevaluate why it is that you *do* feel that way, and/or force you to alter the way you feel about an issue even if only slightly.

An addendum here, and additional fact there, and voila, you're starting to become a more well-rounded individual, with a more realistic understanding of what different people think, and why they think that. Even if you don't agree, you still become a better individual IMO if you can start to see things from their perspective.

I like talking with people that agree with me, but I also like debating with people who don't. Debate forces me to think and speak more concisely, and it usually makes my new perspective and arguments that much stronger than my old ones.

Edit: Removed some near flame ranting and such...

Last edited by CortexBomb on Nov-10-2002 at 23:16

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Becuase of unexplained indidents like the bombimg of the al-Shifa pharmaceautical plant in Sudan by the Clinton administration.

ah, there's a nice bit of propaganda for you... you fell for the medical plant line scripted by terrorists hook, line & sinker. It was a weapons factory, not a medical plant. If you want to believe it's a medical plant, you can join Al-Queda, I hear they're looking for new recruits.

___________________
Current fav albums

DNA, kick me up
Protoculture, Circadians

quote:

Originally posted by tranceaholic hey everyone...this is my first post on this topic..i am american but originally egyptian..here is the way i see things...well being from egypt we had so much terrorist attacks its not even funny..it effected our tourism in economy so bad its ridiculous but did anyone give a fuck nope not at all..although it was a sign of terrorism which been goin on for years before the us got hit..i got very sad by the day of 9.11 but i wondered..why now did people all of a sudden terrorism is in the mainlight and why the war of terrorism didnt occur when other countries got screwed because of it..if the war of terrorism started when other countries got hurt by it wouldnt have we prevented 9.11..or does the big boys have to get hurt so we can care hmmm...another thing what did the afghani strikes accomplish...some would say it got rid of thr taliban but why not we didnt get rid of the taliban and save afghani people before 9.11..or does the big boys have to get hurt so we can care hmmm...and the issue with iraq well it is kinda funny..iraq is like what the us presidents pound on when in trouble..i remembered when clinton confessed to the monica lewinski issue he bombed iraq the second day..that was funny as fuck..and now economic ressesion well then iraq is back in the spotlight..please mr.bush me needs job concentrate on the internal affairs first...well to conclude The USA is a great country and i enjoy livin in it alot..however theie forign policy is weak...but that gives no one the right the judge..when is the last time ur country gave aid to others...all of u talk alot of crap about the us but if u look at ur country ull see that u do little to help others..being from egypt never saw australia or holland help our country but the us surely do...so u have no right to judge unless u do contribute in some way..like someone said look at ur backyard before bitchin about others..if ur house made of glass dont throw stones...u have the right to express ur disagreement but not bashin and bitchin...thanks people..waitin for good feedback..

basically because when you attack the US, you wake the sleeping giant. That's what the Japanese did in WW2, and what Al-Queda did on 9/11... We all know terrorism has been around for centuries, however we did nothing to help Ireland squash their IRA problem, we probably should have... The Columbians also have terrorists attack their government for years, and now the Russians have been victims of terrorists. The US should form a joint world alliance vs. terrorism... Lets start with Ireland and search for terrorists house to house, and then help the Russians with their Chechen terrorists.

As for Iraq, it's a terrorist state, Saddam should be disposed and Iraq disarmed like Japan was in WW2.

___________________
Current fav albums

DNA, kick me up
Protoculture, Circadians

i agree with ya bro..i know we cant fight every terrorism group out there but the thing is the us was worned time and time again that it was there turn but no one listened and there were signs too like the first wtc bombing but obody paid to much attension to it..infact they had one of the most dangerous terrorist leaders just chillin in prison "omar abdel rahman"..not knowing how dangerous he is and all sort of bullshit he made for other countries...so makes u wonder and ask what if..and about iraq..lots of other countries have nukes..should we disarm each an every country..iraq didnt show any sign recently of using em..dont see anyone tryin to disarm india and pakistan and they came close to war..too many problems with the world of today