Indeed, let's all refrain from 13 yr old fightings and remarks from now on.

___________________
Check My Music

quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Indeed, let's all refrain from 13 yr old fightings and remarks from now on.

sounds good to me

come on guys, this is just forums, we have different opinions and are just arguing/discussing about it. no need to get all mad and crazy

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Palestine never was a country. It was always a colony or a region. But that doesn't mean there are no palestinians. Are there no Kurds because they don't have their own country?

my Croatian brotha is right here, or so i presume

haha.

>JM<

quote:

What exactly are we cowardly cinical bullies denying? What fictions have we made up?

It has been a fundamental tenor of Israelis that there were no ethnic cleansings in the war of 1948. Elaborate fictions are invented to hide or cover up what happened at Deir Yassin. Did the arabs in that town just decide to shoot themselves? Did the arabs in Lydda and Ramla decide to ethnically cleanse themselves, I could just imagine what they said "Here European invaders take our land, we dont want it. We want to live in a refugee camp, you deserve to have our land so much more than we do"

To support my point heres a quote from one of your lads:

Shmuel Toledano [former Israeli Labor Party adviser on Arab affairs], "Talking to the P.L.O.," Middle East International, August 28, 1993, pp. 20-21 [reprinted from Ha'aretz
(Israel), August 13, 1993]. An excerpt:

It is worth remembering here that members of the Palestinian delegation went to Tunis in order to submit their resignation for one reason: because they were not prepared to accept the P.L.O.'s orders to respond positively to the U.S. proposal.
They were demanding a more extremist, negative line. Is this not another good reason to prefer direct talks with the Tunis P.L.O.?
. . .In real terms, the P.L.O. and the Palestinians have long abandoned their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle. Now they are saying: "We are willing to refrain from exercising this right, although nobody can possibly disagree with the right itself." In a letter sent on 19 January 1991 by Nabil Sha'th, the chair of
the P.L.O.'s political department, to Harold Saunders, then the U.S. Secretary of State's aide in Middle East Affairs, [Sha'th] said: "I have received a copy of the framework agreement. I am pleased to say that I have been authorised by the P.L.O. to adopt this document and support it as a valuable basis for future negotiations towards peace. . . ." Among other things, the document contains a chapter dealing with the right of return and with the refugees. It says on this subject: "The procedure towards the Palestinians who will wish to return to their homes or to receive compensation will be discussed during the peace process. A collective return of Palestinians to their homes is not envisaged."

How could they abandon their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle if if they werent living there in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by rupert It has been a fundamental tenor of Israelis that there were no ethnic cleansings in the war of 1948. Elaborate fictions are invented to hide or cover up what happened at Deir Yassin. Did the arabs in that town just decide to shoot themselves? Did the arabs in Lydda and Ramla decide to ethnically cleanse themselves, I could just imagine what they said "Here European invaders take our land, we dont want it. We want to live in a refugee camp, you deserve to have our land so much more than we do" To support my point heres a quote from one of your lads: Shmuel Toledano [former Israeli Labor Party adviser on Arab affairs], "Talking to the P.L.O.," Middle East International, August 28, 1993, pp. 20-21 [reprinted from Ha'aretz (Israel), August 13, 1993]. An excerpt: It is worth remembering here that members of the Palestinian delegation went to Tunis in order to submit their resignation for one reason: because they were not prepared to accept the P.L.O.'s orders to respond positively to the U.S. proposal. They were demanding a more extremist, negative line. Is this not another good reason to prefer direct talks with the Tunis P.L.O.? . . .In real terms, the P.L.O. and the Palestinians have long abandoned their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle. Now they are saying: "We are willing to refrain from exercising this right, although nobody can possibly disagree with the right itself." In a letter sent on 19 January 1991 by Nabil Sha'th, the chair of the P.L.O.'s political department, to Harold Saunders, then the U.S. Secretary of State's aide in Middle East Affairs, [Sha'th] said: "I have received a copy of the framework agreement. I am pleased to say that I have been authorised by the P.L.O. to adopt this document and support it as a valuable basis for future negotiations towards peace. . . ." Among other things, the document contains a chapter dealing with the right of return and with the refugees. It says on this subject: "The procedure towards the Palestinians who will wish to return to their homes or to receive compensation will be discussed during the peace process. A collective return of Palestinians to their homes is not envisaged." How could they abandon their dream of returning to Jaffa, Haifa, Lydda and Ramle if if they werent living there in the first place?

Fine, we're on the same page. Of course tehre are making up of things, I've seen some myself and am not proud of it.
So none of the Palestines fictionized anything, ever? As much as I would hate to admit it, both sides are misusing the media and have done so for years. Some of the Palestines are suffering, in fact a lot of them. Would that qualify them as poor, bullied victims even if they start making cases up (I'm reffering to those who do)?


Also, I haven't seen your relation to these :

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Why don't you change the word Aboriginal to Jewish?

And I've just also thought we mighta fucking end all the mid east talk and ask all of the involved :

HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING BETTER TO SUGGEST AND WHAT?

Cause finding the ideal solution is a bit harder than say "This sucks" , especially easier than blaming the suckage at anyone.

___________________
Check My Music

when you guys say aboriginese, who exactly are you talking about?

quote:

my Croatian brotha is right here, or so i presume

da, tu sam, dobro pretpostavljas

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

Originally posted by liquidxxd when you guys say aboriginese, who exactly are you talking about?

Native Australians I believe?

___________________
Check My Music

Their will be rumours of war and war...

firstly a brief explanation of who the aborigines are which will deal with the other issues.

The aborigines are the native australians at the time of the arrival of the first fleet in 1788. The aboriginal people are ethnically and culturally similar and lived throughout Australia when the British first arrived. Which brings me to these

quote:

Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

To be blunt they would have done better if they had something like suicide bombers though obviously with their technology level that wasnt possible. Imperialism is harsh, brutal and callous, whether its the Spanish in South America, the British in Australia, the Jews in Israel. The best that an invaded people can do is fight back as mercilesly as the invaders do. To give an example which demonstrates why this is the best method of resistance compare the Maoris and the Aboriginal people.

The Maoris are the native inhabitants of New Zealand. They were an extremely warlike people who fought the British invaders so succesfully that the British had to compromise with them, effectively recognising their prior sovereignty of their land in the Treaty of Waitangi (I dont know if this is spelt correctly)

The Aboriginal people fought back against their land being taken, but far less effectively than the Maoris. The British found it a lot easier to dispossess them, they were weaker than the Maoris. Thus no Treaty, no recognition of prior sovereignty. It was only in the 1990's that the government of Australia had to recognise that the Aboriginal people had prior ownership of the land, and that was as a result of a court decision. Conquerors do not respect those that they can easily beat.

quote:

Why don't you change the word Aboriginal to Jewish?

That would be fair enough to say that in the 1940's. Jews long ago stopped being able to claim the mantle of victimhood. Maybe in some parts of Eastern Europe, the Middle East their are Jews who still suffer persecution. If you say this is what happens, I will take your word for it. Jews however dont live in ghettos in the West anymore. The irony is the only country in the world that Jews cant be safe walking down the street is the one place the Zionists said they would be safe - Israel

quote:

HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING BETTER TO SUGGEST AND WHAT?

Well I do, and i have said stated my position before but I will repeat it. Before I do I would have to explain how I perceive the relevant parties to the dispute. I will try as brief as possible.

The PLO. Despite what is said by the Israelis the PLO is a very sorry excuse for a liberation organisation. A large measure of why the palestinians are in such a sorry state is because of their poor leadership. They in truth lack any real support from the average palestinian who thinks they are a sell out, Arafat is only marginally popular because the Israelis harrass him mercillesly. I dont know for sure but I would suspect that Hamas has far more popular support than the PLO.

The palestinian leadership could have gone either of two ways the way of the ANC in South Africa, or the way of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. The ANC chose the path of inspired leadership and generating popular support in the west. The Tamil Tigers chose the path of utterly merciless civil war, showing no quarter to the Sri Lankan army and generating money from the Tamil community abroad. The PLO never really tried to get popular support in the West and it relied for funding from rich arabs. The PLO has principally tried to obtain its goals via negotiation, the palestinians saw the Oslo accords as a sell out. The PLO try to get concessions via negotiations, they foolishly think the international community will get them a fair deal.

The Israelis well, they dont really care what anyone thinks, they use diplomacy knowing that they have the upper hand, what with a massive army and Uncle Sam in its corner. They think the PLO is weak.

The Israelis. At its core Israel is a deeply divided country, a secular western element on the one hand and a nasty vicious racist element on the other. At its core both elements believe that Israel is a Jewish state, a home for Jewish people, no matter they have never lived their before a jew can always migrate to Israel. Contrast this with an Arab palestinian whose grandparents were driven out of Israel by the Stern Gang or whoever, they have no right to live in Israel, unless they were lucky enough not to get driven out in 1948.

That is the core issue. Israel is a state for jewish people. Arabs are second class citizens pure and simple. Until that notion is abandoned, the dispute cant be resolved. The Israeli people conditioned to expect their army is invincible enter any negotiations knowing that they can dictate terms. The guys who did all the negotiations were probably thinking "You dont like the terms of the agreement arabs, too fucking bad. what are you going to do, how many tanks, helicopters do you have?" They are wrong though. Superior firepower never guarantees victory or security.

Of-course even the pathetic deal offered to the arabs in OSLO was still to much for the Settlers. Thus the death of the Israeli primeminister. The only way for a peaceful solution in my view is

1 an apology by Israel to the palestinians for what happened in 1948
2 reparations in the form of compensation to those arabs who can prove they or their immediate relatives were driven out of their land in the war.
3 immediate and unconditional withdrawl of the settlements
4 investment in the West Bank and Gaza in the form of factories, roads, hospitals etc.
5 replacement of the leadership of the PLO with more effective and less corrupt leaders.
6 return the Golan heights to Syria.
7 negotiate contractual arrangements for the Water Supply that israel needs from the Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.

Of course Israel will never do any of the above things, even if the Likud party lose the election. The political system is too fractured and the population are to convinced that their army and their nuclear weapons will protect them. Therefore the middle-east problems CANNOT be resolved via negotiation. The people on the ground on both sides are not prepared to accept a negotiated settlement even if one were offered.

Israel WILL lose this war. Principally because the Arabs after fifty years finally believe they can win. Arafat the PLO have no more control over the suicide bombers than I do of when the sun comes up in the morning. Israel will gradually be ground into the dust economically when it can no longer afford its massive army.

As I've said, I'm a left-wing Israeli, I am with the peaceful side etc.
But with time, as the idea for solutions keep coming up I keep losing hope.

It's true, Israel is a Jewish state, that's it's sole purpose... History slapped our sorry ass time and time again and it's time we learned a lesson, before we are extinct and the world will patriotically say "They were poor haunted people".

Now, if your suggestions of solution do work, this state will be another Arab state... I didn't understand from your post if you think this could be a neautral state but if you do then you should rethink.

What happens once this is an Arab state? As horrible as it sounds, this could turn into '33-39 Germany for all we know... THink about it, 24,000,000 palestines and other migrating Arabs are gonna live here, and about 6 million Jews. Whether officially this would be an equal state or not, we would be mocked and treated like garbage, not to mention the instability as both Jew and Palestine riots will end the lives of many.


Basically if you would agree with me and still keep with your point, you think the locating of a Jewish state here is wrong... Do you?

___________________
Check My Music