Well Montie... if you want to make sure you perspective is accurate...

Let me know about your perspective!

Tell me what you think about israel... what you think about the history of the palestinians... their current gov't... what the news says.... etc etc

I'd love to hear what you have learned from the last few years...

SHLOMO

quote:

Originally posted by Blik My post was blown out of porportion what I meant with this line: is that there are people who hate jews, and not that there is a reason to hate Jews And everyone is biased, how can you say that you are not biased? And how can you say that your sources are not biased? Everything is biased, some things more than the other thing. What I tried to say was that it is useless to post those articles because most won't read it, and those who read it (and support the Palestinian cause) will always say that those articles are not true because of the fact that all of those sites support the Israelian cause (and because of this reason they are biased). you know that you can't deny this. I just want you to spare the trouble of looking up all those articles and making those big ass posts. I admire the trouble that you are making for your cause but I just don't think it will help. I just think you do the opposite. But I never wanted you to stop posting (who ever read that in my post can't read...) peace

define what u call bias?

Because I disagree that everything is bias. IS an encyclopedia or dictonary bias? I don't think so. As I say however, liberalism tends to erase lines, and borders and boundaries. So as we see from this example, 'everything is bias' is just not true. Too much mish-mashing of everything... We need to look at everything seperately, and stop cluttering everythign under 1 catagory... A report on what is happening is not going to be bias. If it comes from a source that wants to use propaganda, then it will be bias. KKK documents etc are going to be bias. Nazi documents are going to be bias. But explainations of situations and experiences are not going to be bias atleast in the catagory of presenting the truth about what really happened.

SHLOMO

I have a lot of things that I have to do at the present so I dont have time to provide a detailed response.

Joan Peters is a fraud. That simple. Her work dismissing the legitimacy of the existence of the arabs was exposed by an american jewish academic named Finklestein.

He elaborately deconstructed the whole thing as a complete academic fraud, like the stuff by David Irving to deny the Holocaust.

Using Joan Peters to support any Jewish argument is insanity. It does your cause more harm than good.

Please anyone who reads this if you take anything away from anything I say dont believe anything they tell you that relies on Joan Peters.

It is exactly the same. EXACTLY THE SAME as an arab coming on to this board using the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to support a claim for a jewish world wide conspiracy.

i am saying this as a fact, not a statement, not an argument, not a polemic, a fact.

Please do your own research if you dont believe me. It was discredited even in Israel.

If this thing is still going in a few days time I will provide further material.

i have this awesome idea

god created man, and man in turn created nuclear weapons (nukes). now i figure, we gather up all the retards in the world and send them to an alotted piece of land. once we've assembled all the retards (it's ok, i'll make the selection, i dont discriminate...much), i'll press this lovely, round, fat, red button, and this button will send the nuke on its way to destroy all the retards. and then we can live in a nice, sensible, happy world, without having to worry about idiots and their crazy ideas of the past, present, and future.

the logic of my scheme is solid, maybe even concrete.

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c o n : f u s e d

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Originally posted by shlomo_hamalech define what u call bias? Because I disagree that everything is bias. IS an encyclopedia or dictonary bias? I don't think so. As I say however, liberalism tends to erase lines, and borders and boundaries. So as we see from this example, 'everything is bias' is just not true. Too much mish-mashing of everything... We need to look at everything seperately, and stop cluttering everythign under 1 catagory... A report on what is happening is not going to be bias. If it comes from a source that wants to use propaganda, then it will be bias. KKK documents etc are going to be bias. Nazi documents are going to be bias. But explainations of situations and experiences are not going to be bias atleast in the catagory of presenting the truth about what really happened. SHLOMO

what I mean with everything is biased is that all the media is biased. CNN is biased just because of the fact that they support the American cause. Your local network (in Irael I mean) is biased because it supports the Israelian cause.... etc.

a dictionary is never biased because it explains words, same goes for encyclopedia.

a good report also isn't biased indeed, but a report with vague conclusions can be biased (like the evidence powell presented, I don't say it's biased but it could be because most of the evidence presented was bad, you could never tell if those satellite-pictures where from 10 years ago or from 2 weeks ago)

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Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!

FOOOOOOOOOOOKING AWESOME ARTICLE. THNX FOR THAT MAN.
Gives another interesting view on the situation.
U cant deny that the jewish peoples have been persicuted throughout history. I have heard both sides of the story many times over and over. Obviously the land will not be "given" back. Obviously there will be fights. However. U cant really mess with jews. They know diplomacy, they know $$ and they know how to stick together. NO amount of stones and bombs can really defeat this. Regardless of who is right or wrong. This beeing said why is it that the Arabs wont leave a loosing battle??? Its not as if they dont have places to go. TRavel IN ANY DIRECTION AND YOUL FIND AN ARAB STATE TO LIVE IN.

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Todays youth have desacrated music with the popification of all generes. FOR SHAME.

MUSIC GURU - 2002.

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This beeing said why is it that the Arabs wont leave a loosing battle??? Its not as if they dont have places to go. TRavel IN ANY DIRECTION AND YOUL FIND AN ARAB STATE TO LIVE IN.

Lets flip that another way. Lets say a bunch of Martians came and invaded Canada and forced your grandparents out of Canada and said if they didnt leave they would be murdered and just to demonstrate their intentions they select a Canadian town and destroy it killing most of the inhabitants. The Martians said to you, your white you can live in the United States, theres plenty of white people their.

Now the Martians have lived in Canada for over fifty years now. Do you give up on trying to get your land back even though the Martians have flying saucers and ray guns and what not.

The country in which you live in hates you and they treat you with suspicion. The locals say "how can we respect these Canadians when they cant even defend their own country."

So knowing you are never going to fit in where you are and knowing that the Martians only legitimacy to your land is through violence you would do what any other person would you would fight even if you are going to die for what else can you do.

So to go back to Palestine, plenty of Palestinian refugees fled to other arab countries and still live in refugee camps. But except for Jordan, most arabs states hate the palestinians far more than the Jews do and will never accept them into their societies.

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NO amount of stones and bombs can really defeat this

No, in the long run they will cripple Israel and they will be forced to capitulate.

rupert wrote:

quote:

Lets flip that another way. Lets say a bunch of Martians came and invaded Canada and forced your grandparents out of Canada and said if they didnt leave they would be murdered and just to demonstrate their intentions they select a Canadian town and destroy it killing most of the inhabitants. The Martians said to you, your white you can live in the United States, theres plenty of white people their. Now the Martians have lived in Canada for over fifty years now. Do you give up on trying to get your land back even though the Martians have flying saucers and ray guns and what not. The country in which you live in hates you and they treat you with suspicion. The locals say "how can we respect these Canadians when they cant even defend their own country." So knowing you are never going to fit in where you are and knowing that the Martians only legitimacy to your land is through violence you would do what any other person would you would fight even if you are going to die for what else can you do. So to go back to Palestine, plenty of Palestinian refugees fled to other arab countries and still live in refugee camps. But except for Jordan, most arabs states hate the palestinians far more than the Jews do and will never accept them into their societies.

Your example is flawed... Israel (the martians) never kicked anyone out!!!
Before Israel was Israel, it was the british mandate of 'Palestine' (inhabited by Jews and Arabs alike). The UN gave Israel that land legally. The Arabs who lived there alongside Jews wern't kicked out. Some choose to leave because they didn't want to live under the rule of an Israeli government, and others decided to stay, hence the fact that there are Arabs living inside Israel today.

19 years later, the Arab countries surrounding Israel threatend Israels existance. The war of 67' took place and Israel wiped out the armies of those armies who attacked her to no avail. Israel conquered land that belonged to Egypt, Syria and Jordan. War is war, and if you start it and lose, dont expect your opponent to be so generous to you in the future.
Israel said it would give back the lands conquered in the war to any country ready to make peace with it. Eygpt got Sinai back when they signed a peace agreement with Israel.
Before 1967 there was no one complaining about occupation. No one saying that Israel stole our land.
Many Jews legally baught lands from Arab owners.
After 1967, all of a sudden you hear this new voice appear... the new 'Palestinians' (who are the martians to me). They demand 'they're' lands back...

Now this is where i get lost.... HOW THE FUCK IS IT THEY'RE LAND??
It was Jordans and Syrias repectfully!!! Those two countries knew they lost it fair and square and dont expect to get it back!
You have these refugees whos ansestors made perhaps a stupid decision leaving Israel when they were fully allowed to stay... a generation or 2 later and they realize the mistake they made and start false accusations of theft, occupation, ect...

Whos fault is it that they didn't want to live side by side with Israelis (Jews). They're hate blinded them so much it caused them to make a foolish mistake, and now they have no one else but Israel to blame it on.
I hate this fucking PR game they play for sympathy... ohh poor palestinians... fucking give me a break. they screwed shit up for themselves...

Now, if i were them, and wanted a favour from Israel (land although Israel doesn't owe anyone shit), i'd be kissing ass and would have the sweetest tongue just for a chance at getting some land for my people to live in freely. Mistakes are made by everyone... the truly strong realize and correct they're mistake rather than blame other for it to try and get sympathy. Pathetic dont you think?

quote:

quote: NO amount of stones and bombs can really defeat this No, in the long run they will cripple Israel and they will be forced to capitulate.

NEVER!!!
History has obviously taught you nothing!

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

quote:

Your example is flawed... Israel (the martians) never kicked anyone out!!!

Well on that count many Jewish academics would disagree. There are numerous quotes from the founding fathers of Israel that ethnic cleansing was a deliberate policy option. The Zionists NEVER intended a multicultural state. They would buy land from absentee landlords where possible and if not they would resort to bribes to get the arabs to leave and if that failed they would steal it.

During the civil war of independance the extremist groups of both sides took to murdering villagers of the other side. The Jews were far better organised and methodical.

Once they realised what happened at Deir Yassin and other massacres the arabs fled before they too were massacred.

When the majority of arabs fled,(although some stayed because they were too isolated to be of any interest to the settlers or because they willingly collaborated with the Jews.) for the most part their homes were destroyed so they would have nothing to come back to. Soon after independance Israel passed a law which said that if the arabs didnt return they lost title to there property in Israel. Obviously few chose to accept Israels generosity.

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Now this is where i get lost.... HOW THE FUCK IS IT THEY'RE LAND??

When the Romans destroyed the temple and exiled the Jews the land didnt get depopulated. Plenty of Jews, Romans, Greeks whatever stayed in the land. These people converted to Christianity and then for the most part converted to Islam when the Caliph captured it from the Byzantines. Sor from then on it is has been Muslim land save for a short period in the Middle Ages. The Palestinians have always lived there because they are you. The Palestinians are the Jews that decided not to leave in the exile.

If you were to do a blood test of a group of Jews and a group of Palestinians the DNA would be virtually identical.

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History has obviously taught you nothing!

Every single attempt by Europeans to colonise another country and disposses its occupants in the last one hundred years has in the long run failed.

Perhaps an example closer to home would help. The last time a bunch of Europeans decided to colonise the "Holy Lands" was by the French in the middle ages. It was called the crusades but it was little more than a land grab by greedy Europeans. They called the land Outremer. The had superior firepower, organisation and they faced an initially weak, indecisive and disunited enemy. Of course the French initially beat the arabs.

However the arabs didnt take this lying down, their were plenty of arabs who wanted to accomodate the French, make deals. But for the most part the arabs viewed the French as outsiders and wanted them gone. And eventually they did. Nobody speaks french is Israel now do they?

Every arab child would know about the crusades, but I wonder how many Israelis do.

Anyway I want to get some sleep

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Well on that count many Jewish academics would disagree. There are numerous quotes from the founding fathers of Israel that ethnic cleansing was a deliberate policy option. The Zionists NEVER intended a multicultural state. They would buy land from absentee landlords where possible and if not they would resort to bribes to get the arabs to leave and if that failed they would steal it. During the civil war of independance the extremist groups of both sides took to murdering villagers of the other side. The Jews were far better organised and methodical. Once they realised what happened at Deir Yassin and other massacres the arabs fled before they too were massacred. When the majority of arabs fled,(although some stayed because they were too isolated to be of any interest to the settlers or because they willingly collaborated with the Jews.) for the most part their homes were destroyed so they would have nothing to come back to. Soon after independance Israel passed a law which said that if the arabs didnt return they lost title to there property in Israel. Obviously few chose to accept Israels generosity. When the Romans destroyed the temple and exiled the Jews the land didnt get depopulated. Plenty of Jews, Romans, Greeks whatever stayed in the land. These people converted to Christianity and then for the most part converted to Islam when the Caliph captured it from the Byzantines. Sor from then on it is has been Muslim land save for a short period in the Middle Ages. The Palestinians have always lived there because they are you. The Palestinians are the Jews that decided not to leave in the exile. If you were to do a blood test of a group of Jews and a group of Palestinians the DNA would be virtually identical. Every single attempt by Europeans to colonise another country and disposses its occupants in the last one hundred years has in the long run failed. Perhaps an example closer to home would help. The last time a bunch of Europeans decided to colonise the "Holy Lands" was by the French in the middle ages. It was called the crusades but it was little more than a land grab by greedy Europeans. They called the land Outremer. The had superior firepower, organisation and they faced an initially weak, indecisive and disunited enemy. Of course the French initially beat the arabs. However the arabs didnt take this lying down, their were plenty of arabs who wanted to accomodate the French, make deals. But for the most part the arabs viewed the French as outsiders and wanted them gone. And eventually they did. Nobody speaks french is Israel now do they? Every arab child would know about the crusades, but I wonder how many Israelis do. Anyway I want to get some sleep

Good post rupert, you have a bunch of historical facts in there that I recognize. Yes the Zionists did begin their attempt to establish an "Israel" by land purchases and buyouts but what is illegal about that? Many Arabs were more than eager to sell their land which they largely viewed as worthless. Yes teh Zionists never INTENDED a multicultural state but the Zionists of the 1800s were not the same as those of the 1900s. Attitudes quickly changed and the Israeli movement became VERY accepting of other cultures as evidenced by the fact that Israel extended citizenship to virtually anyone regardless of religion or nationality. As for being methodical and organized in their massacres ... I completely disagree. There was just as much organization among Arabs to massacre jews during the civil strife. The difference was that there were far more Arabs among the general population and the jews were isolated to few areas such that it appeared that there was a concerted effort by jews to rid Palestine of Arabs. At any rate, there were two significant radical groups ... one Israel and one Arab that practiced these horrible tactics. I'll try to dig out that book that described this later ... I'm about to see Gielen! Also I'll discuss the Roman reference and the Eurpean dominance later. I'll simply give the example of America for now ... if my memory serves me correctly American is populated by "Europeans" so that's one scenario where Europe successfully colonized and dispossessed its inhabitants. Anyway trance overrides politics! I may post a political commentary on Gielen's set ... haha yea probably not! to be continued ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Good post rupert, you have a bunch of historical facts in there that I recognize. Yes the Zionists did begin their attempt to establish an "Israel" by land purchases and buyouts but what is illegal about that? Many Arabs were more than eager to sell their land which they largely viewed as worthless. Yes teh Zionists never INTENDED a multicultural state but the Zionists of the 1800s were not the same as those of the 1900s. Attitudes quickly changed and the Israeli movement became VERY accepting of other cultures as evidenced by the fact that Israel extended citizenship to virtually anyone regardless of religion or nationality. As for being methodical and organized in their massacres ... I completely disagree. There was just as much organization among Arabs to massacre jews during the civil strife. The difference was that there were far more Arabs among the general population and the jews were isolated to few areas such that it appeared that there was a concerted effort by jews to rid Palestine of Arabs. At any rate, there were two significant radical groups ... one Israel and one Arab that practiced these horrible tactics. I'll try to dig out that book that described this later ... I'm about to see Gielen! Also I'll discuss the Roman reference and the Eurpean dominance later. I'll simply give the example of America for now ... if my memory serves me correctly American is populated by "Europeans" so that's one scenario where Europe successfully colonized and dispossessed its inhabitants. Anyway trance overrides politics! I may post a political commentary on Gielen's set ... haha yea probably not! to be continued ...

Great rebuttel Occrider...
looking forward to its continuation tomorrow.
I will also respond to the post at a later time.

I saw gielen last night, waiting for my ride to see Holden, Corsten and BT tonight!!
have a great night!

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

yeah occrider, I'm very interested to see the example you're going to say bout the good ol'States, as I have a couple of ideas on this meself. Anyways hope you enjoyed Gielen, and hopefully ur not on dial-up anymore