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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what a cop out. here youve been plugging your various demolition arguments ad nauseum, and as soon as i can be bothered to find some credible arguments to the contrary, you suddenly argue no one can prove a thing, without actually taking anything ive posted to task.

I about died laughing when he wrote that. Typical, so typical when these jobs get flustered. When the cold hard facts of COMMON SENSE slaps them in the face, they start saying "Well there is really no way to prove it..." wha whaa whaaa, it was Bush's Fault right?
It was the big bad government that did it, Please, if there is not a way to prove your theory, that you just stated, then how can you even, for a moment, take yourself seriously?? Its like those "certain" people out there that still believe Crop Circles are made by Aliens, Even though the evidence points directly at a couple of guys with 2x4s they still still believe.
Grow Up. Or you will end up sitting in a padded cell wearing a foil hat and thinking that you are the Linberg Baby, or worse yet, you will actually continue to think you are right and that my fellow TA is the worst thing for "you" to think.

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"...it's coming over our radio, get out of the area, the second tower's coming down." "They're saying the second tower is coming...?" "Yes, it's about to collapse." WMV video download (48kB)

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ABC News Broadcast 281kB WMV Download “I went down to the scene and we set up headquarters at 75 Barkley Street, which was right there with the Police Commissioner, the Fire Commissioner, the Head of Emergency Management, and we were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse. And it did collapse before we could actually get out of the building, so we were trapped in the building for 10, 15 minutes, and finally found an exit and got out, walked north, and took a lot of people with us.”

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9/11 ABC News report: 557kB WMV download"This is as close as we can get to the base of the World Trade Center. You can see the firemen assembled here, the police officers, FBI agents, and you can see the two towers... a huge explosion now raining debris on all of us." "We gotta get out of the way!"

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Again, times are a little fuzzy initially for me. A few minutes later, John came to me and said you need to go find Chief Ganci and relay the following message: that the buildings have been compromised, we need to evacuate, they're going to collapse. I said okay. I went down Vesey Street towards West. Q. You were by yourself? A. I was by myself, me and my helmet and my radio. I got to the corner of Vesey and West. I found some EMS vehicles. I think I saw Chief Gombo there. I'm not really sure. I mentioned to the EMS people there, again, not knowing who they were, I said you need to get away from here, the building might collapse, we need to leave this spot. As I was walking towards the Fire command post, I found Steve Mosiello. I said, Steve, where's the boss? I have to give him a message. He said, well, what's the message? I said the buildings are going to collapse; we need to evac everybody out. With a very confused look he said who told you that? I said I was just with John at OEM. OEM says the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get out. He escorted me over to Chief Ganci. He said, hey, Pete, we got a message that the buildings are going to collapse. His reply was who the fuck told you that? Then Steve brought me in and with Chief Ganci, Commissioner Feehan, Steve, I believe Chief Turi was initially there, I said, listen, I was just at OEM. The message I was given was that the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get our people out. At that moment, this thunderous, rolling roar came down and that's when the building came down, the first tower came down. WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW EMT RICHARD ZARRILLO Interview Date: October 25, 2001

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Windsor Building Core: WTC 1 Core:

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Originally posted by Nou Their scenario was a 707, low on fuel and somehow lost in fog/bad weather looking to land hitting one of the towers. Not a fully loaded 767/757 (a MUCH larger plane) traveling at over 500MPH taking direct aim for the most critical parts of the building. Take your own advice. The building suffered a catastrophic failure after a prolonged weakening of the entire structure from the result of fire. That is much easier to comprehend than a conspiracy of the buildings being destroyed. Uhmmm right... like I said, they didn't even want to learn how to take off or land, they cared about flying a plane into a building... its not that hard of a thing to do. These large jets practically fly themselves. With little training these men were easily capable of hitting those MASSIVE targets.

I'm not exactly fond of repeating myself and going in circles.

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Originally posted by Nou Well I honestly can say I do not hold any particular feelings of like for this country. I can say that, as horrible as these events were, we were asking for it. But to claim that a countries government would commit mass murder on a scale as large as this and get away with it is nothing but ignorance. You are ignorant. You either have some hidden feelings (perhaps you believe that Muslims are not capable of something so horrible?) or perhaps you are just stupid, but there is no debate that you are ignorant.

Hidden feelings? No, I'm not a stupid fucking sheep. I think Muslims are just as big douche bags as any other group. Affiliation with any particular religious/ideological/ethnic group doesn't make anyone automatically incapable of any unethical behaviour/violence/evil/whatever you want to call it.

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Originally posted by Nou And how plausible is a theory of a controlled demolition? An office building that employed 20,000 people was some how rigged with explosives and demolished? That is beyond ridiculous and honestly I feel sorry for you if you believe this as credible. It is absolutely absurd.

Building 7.

Illegaly destroyed evidence.

"The best thing to do is pull it" -Larry Silverstein

The Bush Administration blocking independent investigation.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by ogvh5150

*sighs*

so let me get this straight- even though the government were willing to murder untold amount of people in the actual demolition, let alone anything that the panic afterwards would cause, cause the damage done to the american psyche...

they still wanted to save the head of the rescue efforts (not forgetting there would have been several admirable replacements for them should they die, thats how a government hierarchy works) so they sent the word down that the towers were gonna come down? you know, run the risk of telling everyone what was gonna happen, and possibly lessen the impact of this very important, convoluted mission theyd obviously been planning for some time.

did it ever occur to you that some expert(s) with a view to how extensive the damage was might justa mentioned that they thought the shit was gonna hit the fan?

honestly, what youve posted there is so ridiculously irrelevant it makes me angry.

so, how bout you work on my two posts from here and stop trying to play connect-the-dots, coz the picture youre trying to draw looks less coherent than the last time i wrote my name in the snow

please, id love to know your take on why thermite couldnt have done this. im really curious as to why youre ignoring compelling arguments and just regurgitating non sequiturs.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Hehe.. Nice too see you back on PDD and in this thread . Well, you're right about that, I didn't, mostly because of laziness , but also because he didn't eigther. I kept to the same [simple] standard of argument, and therefore didn't feel compelled to go into a more complex analysis. So I relied on similar (not the same) cases. The common elements of fire/plane crash are there. The point I was making was that never before has a modern steel frame skyscraper ever collapsed because of fire or a plane crash (not to mention falling neatly on itself like a controlled demolition). And I find the pancake theory, which even the FEMA reports admitted to having a very low probability and the only hypothesis they considered, highly unlikely and unbelievable. So the burden of proof weighs much more heavily on supporters the official and opposed to the skeptics (keeping in mind what I said previously). Although, I remember the debate between you and stevieboy, which, unfortunately, didn't fully finish. Hopefully he'll follow up on it, or who know, I just might (if I can get my lazy ass to do it! ). But the whole pancake/controlled demolition theory is only one part of the bigger picture. There's way too much circumstantial evidence and eye witness testimony, from firefighters and civilians, (which I won't get into at this point) for me to accept the official version of events. And it's just too convenient for this administration and the PNAC team for me to not consider complicity. Also, people like ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern, ex-Head of Star Wars project Lt. Col. Bob Bowman (who was also trained as an interceptor pilot), these two MI-5 agents (who's names I can't remember at the moment), and many other memebers of the military and intelligence agencies who believe in a coverup and inside job, give the theory quite a bit of credibility in my eyes. Not to mention the our goverments history of carrying out false flag operations and state sponsored terrorism, documents like Northwoods etc. Ok, I'm digressing a little bit as far as my response to your post goes . My was point was what I stated [way] above . EDIT: Jesus, I just noticed the insane number of smileys I used. <-(and another one, no pun intended)

Blast ... it looks like Pk did much of the dirty work for me. I think the point that PK made, and I would attempt to convey is that one cannot make any kind of comparison on engineering structures without going into details. I think you're trying to go in 10 different directions at once without closing or addressing the issues that others are making in any specific issue. For example, you bring up the empire state building as an example yet you never address the counterarguments raised to dismiss that comparison. You seem to cherry pick the circumstancial evidence that suits your needs without confronting the nonsensical byproducts that your theory implies. I'm afriad that Pk has done a very detailed rebuttal that you will have to address point by point if you hope to properly debate this issue. How can anyone expect to digest the posts that you make unless you rebutt counterargument made by others. The reason why I'm so turned off by these threads is that I don't think that anybody has properly addressed any argument I've made with respect to this issue to fruition. As such, why should I waste my time to do research, post rebuttals, and argue with people when they are unwilling to make the same sacrifice?

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Retro ...

hehe, in no way am i trying to say that was my research by the way. i just thought if i didnt quote the whole thing people might be more likely to read it/with an open mind.

from my perspective the narrative of how everything went down that day from deunking911.com is so much more compelling than a conspiracy that to me, still makes no sense. forgetting the particulars of explosives and NORAD and planes or missiles for a second- its just not something you would ever plan from the inside if you wanted to use the sympathy to start a war. the larger picture just doesnt make any sense.

anyone that is even remotely in the middle on this subject, i suggest you check out the site. it contains heaps of interesting, concise & plausible information. im sure its got its issues, but it helps by showing how much of the conspiracy research reads like a B-grade highschool students' assignment (done by me, not a renegade or an occrider )

http://debunking911.com/

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not exactly fond of repeating myself and going in circles.

I've been using ignore. Too bad they don't use it as well.

This will cheer you up:

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Last edited by ogvh5150 on Aug-22-2006 at 21:03

I read PK's rebuttal, and i liked what i saw.

im not going to go into a lengthy comment here but just a few points i want to make clear, and no i dont have time to go to google videos and find nice footage for you.

when reinforced concrete fails (meaning the steel has yielded) the failure is violent and explosive, shooting small minute chunks of the material all over the place. the force of an entire floorslab hitting the one below it would create an debris cloud that looks like the one from the colapse photos. Think of concrete as a baloon filled iwth shaving cream. the portland cement when it is curing creates millions of small internal stresses due to creep, shrinkage and thermal expansion. the cement bonding between sand and aggregates holds these stresses back. when that bond fails (modulus of rupture has been reached) all those stresses are released and the particals tend to rush apart.

also for the love of god stop comparing the WTC towers to any other building especially the windsor building as its not even the same freakin construciton method.


windsor building - reinroced concrete

WTC - Steel frame with HUNG concrete slabs

Empire State Building - Standard Steel Frame


the one thing i cant stress enough is taht the WTC is a unique design and there is no other building that i can think of that uses the same design principles. The unique design came from the height. a tall building needs to be rigid enough to remain standing yet flexible enough to move in the wind. (CN tower in toronto ontario can move 6ft at the top in a strong wind)

secondly, while the elevator shafts at the buildings core suport some of the slab weight, if the exterior GIRDERS (not beams i will explain the difference later) fail, the slab will experience somethign called shear punching, where the slab cannot withstand the shearforce at the boundry of the elevator shaft wall to the slab surface due to its own self weight and the elevator shaft punches through the slab like a cookie cutter. My double Phd Structural design professor has suggested that this is the reason why the towers seemed to fall in such a straight line, the central shaft core was acting like a string of pearls. due to the explosive failure of concrete in compression, the fallout radius seems to be quite large from an arial view.

almost forgot, beams vs girders. A beam sits on top of (or is bolted to) two girders and supports your flor system. A girder is attached directly to columns using a MOMENT REISTING CONNECTION, or three way tie. this makes a RIDGID FRAME

so lets recap... beam to girder, non rigid, girder to column, ridgid

the WTC towers didnt have a standard steel frame, they had a RIDGID exoskeleton consiting of massive WWF columns (Welded Wide Flange) and WWF Stub Girders.


and for the record WWF shapes in steel construction start at 2" plate and above. when you cut 2" plate steel with a torch, or anything for that matter it tends to cut a 1/4" inch slit. now do the math

i believe the column dimensions (outer) were 28" x 18" so lets take the short side, now to cut throught that you wou7ld be taking 18"*2"*1/4" = 9"^3 of molten steel. thats alot of slag, which would explain the drippings around the cuts.


back to the thermite argument, which i consider moot at this point but however, i have already pointed out that it would take a large amount of it to cut through 2" plate steel, let alone when it is welded into an H shape measuring 18 x 28 inches. if it takes kg to melt a hole through an engine block, lets asume for a second that this hole is 3/4 of an inch in diameter. now to cut across 18" (a large v8 is around 28" deep) would be 24kg / column. since the exterior columns were spaced at 1016mm center to center around the perimeter, id say thats a FUCK LOAD OF THERMITE.

point finale....


ps thermite reaction produces molten Iron, not molten Steel


- dont argue with an engineer unless you want me to get picky

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 I've been using ignore. Too bad they don't use it as well.

i rest my case.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i rest my case.

That you are an asshole?

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid That you are an asshole?

nice to see you jump into yet another discussion you are completely incapable of understanding.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN nice to see you jump into yet another discussion you are completely incapable of understanding.

No, I understand that you are an asshole or another words a very close minded individual.