quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII I don't think domesticated was necesarily wrong for suggesting that the DNA test seems a bit weird just because it seems weird they have any comparison... It seems unlikely his DNA would have just handily been on file somewhere, for example...

they could match it with his relatives if nothing else.

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII Since he said a photo would suffice, or other proof though, that's no really that 'hard'; its tangible, and any n00b can see it for themselves

how often does the government parade photographs of dead people except in a court of law? i too would like to see the pics just out of curiosity, but expecting the US to provide such just to placate all the idiots (yes, that means domesticated as well) seems a little bit strange to me.

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Originally posted by domesticated likes the balls Of course a photo can be doctored. However, like plastic surgery there are experts who can tell when there has been tampering. Releasing a photo to the public would allow for independent verification, from anyone who knows photoshop. As I said, a DNA test means we have to take their word for it. That is why I wanted a photo.

as above. i don't think the US owes anyone any proof. not because they're trustworthy souls or anything, but because they don't give a shit.

quote:

Originally posted by domesticated likes the balls Are you fucking kidding me? Go and read up about the United Fruit company and the CIA in Niacaragua, or the United States current involvement in Bolivia. Your government does tons of underhanded shit which has been confirmed by reliable sources. They have a long, dirty history of these kind of tactics.

if you know the facts about these issues then they didn't keep it very secret did they?

quote:

Originally posted by domesticated likes the balls That's an example, and I'm not claiming that's how it went, but it's just a possibility, and one which would be incredibly easy to lie about and cover up.

what makes it so easy? people have to do the DNA testing and take the photographs, and participate in the fake assault. that's a whole lotta people to include in the conspiracy who are willing to go along with it and keep their mouth shut.

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Last edited by pkcRAISTLIN on May-03-2011 at 09:03

quote:

Originally posted by Light The Fuse im kinda with domesticated - 5 months or so before the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 and with obamas falling approval rating (straight after the royal wedding) it was time to pull the ****** out of the fridge, swab a bit of dna and feed the sharks some obama-pops.

how is it relevant to 911 jules? i mean, there are only 12 months in the year. regardless of when the assassination occured, you could say "oh, its only 5-6-7-8-9 months before the 10th anniversary". its like when truthers claim that Silverstein renewed his insurance for the WTC complex 6 months before the attacks- so he was uninsured before then right?

if timing is so important i fail to see why you'd bring out the dead puppet now, rather than just before the election.

im also not sure how much importance the wedding had in the US?

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Didn't his sister die a while back so they got the DNA from that? The hospital where they got the body in Boston apparently denied she was there though, so there's a nice FBI cover up for you. Wouldn't surprise me.

I believe he's dead and I'm fairly certain that it happened the way it did, though I'm a little disappointed by the fact they dumped the body at sea. Ok so they didn't want him buried anywhere, creating a type of pilgrimage site for his supporters, but something is a bit suss there. I guess we'll find out when Wikileaks gets to it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Of course a photo can be doctored. However, like plastic surgery there are experts who can tell when there has been tampering. Releasing a photo to the public would allow for independent verification, from anyone who knows photoshop. As I said, a DNA test means we have to take their word for it. That is why I wanted a photo.

Are you joking? Independent verification from "anyone who knows Photoshop"? I think if anyone can doctor a photo to the highest possible quality, it's the US government. And according to the official story, Bin Laden was almost certainly shot in the head twice. So you think a photograph of a mangled head released by the US government and verified by armchair experts on the Internet is reliable proof? You're not even a very good conspiracy theorist. If you're going to doubt official evidence, you're taking the first step into CT circular reasoning where no proof will ever be good enough.

I highly doubt there is anything significantly inaccurate about this story, for two main reasons:

1. It would be very easy for Al Qaeda to disprove the story, and why wouldn't they?
2. If the US know Bin Laden has been dead for some time, as you suggest, why didn't they announce it at the time, and why announce it now? If Obama has been saving up this story for an appropriate time, even the Republicans in this thread are pointing out that 18 months before an election isn't the ideal time for it to come out.

It's only one small step to the "Al Qaeda was invented by the US government" reasoning from here.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN they could match it with his relatives if nothing else. how often does the government parade photographs of dead people except in a court of law? i too would like to see the pics just out of curiosity, but expecting the US to provide such just to placate all the idiots (yes, that means domesticated as well) seems a little bit strange to me. as above. i don't think the US owes anyone any proof. not because they're trustworthy souls or anything, but because they don't give a shit. if you know the facts about these issues then they didn't keep it very secret did they? what makes it so easy? people have to do the DNA testing and take the photographs, and participate in the fake assault. that's a whole lotta people to include in the conspiracy who are willing to go along with it and keep their mouth shut.

yeah fair enough, I think the big thing is this:

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz I'm a little disappointed by the fact they dumped the body at sea. Ok so they didn't want him buried anywhere, creating a type of pilgrimage site for his supporters, but something is a bit suss there. I guess we'll find out when Wikileaks gets to it.

The US isn't the model of honesty, so them just saying 'we pwnd this mother******, SOOO HARD! He had no fuckin idea we were coming in, and we just capped his ass!', and generally acting like mad-****s, with (now) no evidence that he is even dead (disposing of the body as they did) is going to raise a lot of questions...

the fact they just killed him is fucking suspicious in itself... They would get a lot more from having him put on trial, and he would definitely get the death penalty anyway... why not shame him first? Maybe they intended to capture him and it got out of hand- It is unlikely he would go peacefully

anyway, I don't know what happened, and I don't really care, I don't think they have big motive to lie, and even if they did lie, does it matter?

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Are you joking? Independent verification from "anyone who knows Photoshop"? I think if anyone can doctor a photo to the highest possible quality, it's the US government. And according to the official story, Bin Laden was almost certainly shot in the head twice. So you think a photograph of a mangled head released by the US government and verified by armchair experts on the Internet is reliable proof? You're not even a very good conspiracy theorist. If you're going to doubt official evidence, you're taking the first step into CT circular reasoning where no proof will ever be good enough. I highly doubt there is anything significantly inaccurate about this story, for two main reasons: 1. It would be very easy for Al Qaeda to disprove the story, and why wouldn't they? 2. If the US know Bin Laden has been dead for some time, as you suggest, why didn't they announce it at the time, and why announce it now? If Obama has been saving up this story for an appropriate time, even the Republicans in this thread are pointing out that 18 months before an election isn't the ideal time for it to come out. It's only one small step to the "Al Qaeda was invented by the US government" reasoning from here.

again just playing devil's advocate- 1: It's not really a centralised organisation- If he's still alive it might come out in a few weeks, if he's been dead for ages most of THEM might not have known about it... 2: the suggestion was that they didn't know he was dead then-- they found out he died and pretended they did it NOW, instead of doing an epic anticlimax ('so, uh... it turns out he;s been dead for a year now, lulz, woops')- if that was true al qaeda would never have admitted he was dead- I think its unlikely he had any significant role in the organisation, but he surely would have been a central figure just AS a figure-head...

again: No rational (read; Linguistic) argument is going to take apart a request for proof. There's a million reasons this could have happened- Your conjecture is as valid as his, so there's no point in saying 'x is more likely...' since he's asking for FACTS, not likelihoods...

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But my point is that if once you start doubting the source, there are almost no facts that will suffice. They could wheel the literal corpse out in front of Domesticated, with all its facial features distorted or destroyed by gunshot wounds, and he would doubt it on the basis that he can't see any likeness. Then you have the battle between qualified professionals assuring us this is what Bin Laden looks like when he's been shot twice in the head, and Internet amateurs who've "seen gunshot wounds to the face, and this is not the end result of a 5.56mm round from close range" and blah blah blah, here we fucking go again.

The official DNA test is a "fact", as close to one as you'll ever get. If Domesticated won't accept that, it's all over. Any body can be switched, any photo can be doctored, any eye-witness account can be bought out, any DNA test could be nonsense... once you doubt the source, there are no FACTS.

The only reason to doubt this story, aside from distrusting anything the US claims about terrorism by default, is the way his body was disposed. Again, there's been a perfectly good explanation for that disposal, so why are we doubting anything here? Of course, the US could have faked a special forces operation and ruined one of their expensive Black Hawks into the bargain just to avoid an "epic anti-climax", but again that requires silencing a lot of people involved.

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quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII the fact they just killed him is fucking suspicious in itself... They would get a lot more from having him put on trial, and he would definitely get the death penalty anyway... why not shame him first?

i can think of two reasons.

1- now they don't have to deal with raghead of the week taking hostages and demanding the release of OBL.

2- OBL was shooting at military personnel.

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII Maybe they intended to capture him and it got out of hand- It is unlikely he would go peacefully

ya think?

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i can think of two reasons. 1- now they don't have to deal with raghead of the week taking hostages and demanding the release of OBL. 2- OBL was shooting at military personnel. ya think?

haha yeah not sure, it was just a thought

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J But my point is that if once you start doubting the source, there are almost no facts that will suffice. They could wheel the literal corpse out in front of Domesticated, with all its facial features distorted or destroyed by gunshot wounds, and he would doubt it on the basis that he can't see any likeness. Then you have the battle between qualified professionals assuring us this is what Bin Laden looks like when he's been shot twice in the head, and Internet amateurs who've "seen gunshot wounds to the face, and this is not the end result of a 5.56mm round from close range" and blah blah blah, here we fucking go again. The official DNA test is a "fact", as close to one as you'll ever get. If Domesticated won't accept that, it's all over. Any body can be switched, any photo can be doctored, any eye-witness account can be bought out, any DNA test could be nonsense... once you doubt the source, there are no FACTS. The only reason to doubt this story, aside from distrusting anything the US claims about terrorism by default, is the way his body was disposed. Again, there's been a perfectly good explanation for that disposal, so why are we doubting anything here? Of course, the US could have faked a special forces operation and ruined one of their expensive Black Hawks into the bargain just to avoid an "epic anti-climax", but again that requires silencing a lot of people involved.

Sure, that CAN happen, but as I said in a few posts, most people have a line where proof is enough. I believe domesticated's was an objective, non-intellectualised proof (like a picture). Sure DNA tests can be considered factual, but 1: they're provided by faceless US scientists, and 2: WE'RE not scientists! Do you know how to read them? I don't, so hearing the conclusion of the test is the same as them telling me the conclusion without the test ever having been done... but anyone can look at a picture...

Skeptical points can most definitely get out of hand, but domesticated didn't suggest any kind of absurd proof, he asked for an objective (non-tainted, and unfiltered) proof... That's not that silly imo... and he wasn't stupid enough to say he's still alive, or its a tragedy, he just said its suspicious, and i think it got way out of hand from there

what WAS the official reason for dumping his body at sea? Not trolling, I actually don't know, some people put some reasons up, but I didn't catch the official one..?

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That's a big error that America has done.These terrorists are going to take revenge.

Rip.