i sobbed this morning when i saw these pictures...i truly hope that there is a cease fire soon...these children..any children for that matter do not deserve this...

you can hate muslims or jews...but, children transcend everything..they are innocent....if anything, our world should not tolerate the murder of innocent children...in any country..and this is why nations like the US have to be aggressive about garnering a cease fire...

please don't look at the images if you can't handle the reality...

http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?ref=...01961769&ref=nf


20 years from now..these kinds of images are going to be the historical context of someones argument..hopefully some type of peace will be in place by then....


and to be honest..i am disgusted with all of the governments of this world...all of them..especially the governments of the two countries I am a citizen of...Turkey and Canada....this is not the first time the world has stood idly stood by as innocent children were being slaughtered..it's sickening to me...

Last edited by gummybear on Jan-07-2009 at 17:57

quote:

Originally posted by UmmiE Ok lets agree with what you have said so far.......Keeping in mind that the litter brother did all that.....Now here is my question :- Based on your surroundings and whatever you have seen so far since your are currently in Israel....Do you think Israel never did anything to provoke such acts in the past from the little brother? Like these people in (gaza,palestine) side are the ones always starting it ?

This, again, is not something I wanted to go into (and I mentioned it in my post). As many people have noticed, that sort of discussion only ends up going in circles, and that's not something I'm fond of doing. I don't care who started what when, I care that things don't remain one-sided throughout - because only then will things begin to change.

Many people who are posting here (though far from all) have *VERY* extreme opinions and will denounce anything that isn't in full support of their view. To align yourself with that sort of mindset is disturbingly wrong. It makes things like THIS seem ok. I should note (without going on too much of a tangent) that what's going on in that story is not terribly distant from the pre-Enlightenment period in Europe where Jews were first banned from academia (unless baptised), then slaughtered, and not terribly distant from pre-war Germany, in which Jews were first banned from academia (regardless of baptism), then slaughtered. It's the same nonsense under the cover of 'anti-Zionism', and it's very much the same feeling I get when I read a lot of these posts. Whether I'm right or wrong, I hope not to find out.

Many will argue "It's not anti-Jew, it's anti-Zionist". The only problem is, this is a completely misconstrued definition of what Zionism is. The fact that people drag religion into modern-day Zionism to begin with is *INCORRECT*. To think that Israel is a totally religious community is garbage, as the large majority of Israelies only keep certain amounts of tradition and scrap the actual religion - and it's been that way from the beginning of the "Zionistic" movement.

To address your question on what I've experienced here: I'm a bit further north of the 'action' at the moment. What I do know, is that even where I am there have been several damaging riots (which are not widely reported in International television) within the Old City of Jerusalem among other regions within the country. Furthermore, many friends of mine are deeply effected by what's going on right now and have been effected for months (before any public war broke out). The rockets on Sderot (a city of southern Israel), as tatgirl mentioned, went on for months before any of this "war" stuff that's come up in the last few weeks. Outside of that, friends in Ashkelon, Be'er Sheva, and Ashdod are running into their bomb shelters regularly as their cities are consistently placed in code red standings due to incoming missiles. It's not pretty.

As many people will jump to say "WELL LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE - LOOK WE HAVE VIDEOS!", I will restate that I am *NOT* trying to say things are one-sided, nor to paint a horrid picture which will scare you out of your pants - I am simply restating what I experience and what others experience here and I *DO* recognize that the same thing is happening on the other side now that Israel decided to take action. I do think that before anyone comments on any individual article they should take caution - regardless of the side - to check several other sources and to wait a short while before bursting out in rage.

It's easy to tell people to get educated, it's more of a nuisance to actually do it (and I stand as a victim and perpetrator of both, admittedly).

I hope you'll see, at the very least, that this is far from me spreading propaganda. I'm just trying to tone down some peoples' extreme tones before they say or do something stupid (if they haven't already).

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Z umm, nope, genocide or ethnic cleansing is reserved for the balkans

oooooh. lol. nice.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade This, again, is not something I wanted to go into (and I mentioned it in my post). As many people have noticed, that sort of discussion only ends up going in circles, and that's not something I'm fond of doing. I don't care who started what when, I care that things don't remain one-sided throughout - because only then will things begin to change. Many people who are posting here (though far from all) have *VERY* extreme opinions and will denounce anything that isn't in full support of their view. To align yourself with that sort of mindset is disturbingly wrong. It makes things like THIS seem ok. I should note (without going on too much of a tangent) that what's going on in that story is not terribly distant from the pre-Enlightenment period in Europe where Jews were first banned from academia (unless baptised), then slaughtered, and not terribly distant from pre-war Germany, in which Jews were first banned from academia (regardless of baptism), then slaughtered. It's the same nonsense under the cover of 'anti-Zionism', and it's very much the same feeling I get when I read a lot of these posts. Whether I'm right or wrong, I hope not to find out. Many will argue "It's not anti-Jew, it's anti-Zionist". The only problem is, this is a completely misconstrued definition of what Zionism is. The fact that people drag religion into modern-day Zionism to begin with is *INCORRECT*. To think that Israel is a totally religious community is garbage, as the large majority of Israelies only keep certain amounts of tradition and scrap the actual religion - and it's been that way from the beginning of the "Zionistic" movement. To address your question on what I've experienced here: I'm a bit further north of the 'action' at the moment. What I do know, is that even where I am there have been several damaging riots (which are not widely reported in International television) within the Old City of Jerusalem among other regions within the country. Furthermore, many friends of mine are deeply effected by what's going on right now and have been effected for months (before any public war broke out). The rockets on Sderot (a city of southern Israel), as tatgirl mentioned, went on for months before any of this "war" stuff that's come up in the last few weeks. Outside of that, friends in Ashkelon, Be'er Sheva, and Ashdod are running into their bomb shelters regularly as their cities are consistently placed in code red standings due to incoming missiles. It's not pretty. As many people will jump to say "WELL LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE - LOOK WE HAVE VIDEOS!", I will restate that I am *NOT* trying to say things are one-sided, nor to paint a horrid picture which will scare you out of your pants - I am simply restating what I experience and what others experience here and I *DO* recognize that the same thing is happening on the other side now that Israel decided to take action. I do think that before anyone comments on any individual article they should take caution - regardless of the side - to check several other sources and to wait a short while before bursting out in rage. It's easy to tell people to get educated, it's more of a nuisance to actually do it (and I stand as a victim and perpetrator of both, admittedly). I hope you'll see, at the very least, that this is far from me spreading propaganda. I'm just trying to tone down some peoples' extreme tones before they say or do something stupid (if they haven't already).

your view is very one sided...but you say it's not....i think any logical person knows that mistakes have been made on both sides....but to compare the current actions to, your friends having to run into bomb shelters, is just an attempt to water down the horror that is being place on the people of Gaza..it's not the same thing! not to say that what has happened to the Jewish people is right..i can understand how scary it must be to hear those sirens and to have to seek shelter...i totally get it..

your rationalizations are just an attempt to take the focus off of the issue at hand...

yes, the people of israel have to also live in fear...but they are not being slaughtered.....they are not suffering as the people of Gaza are..they have basic liberties....they have basic human rights...they have access to medical care..they have the ability to FLEE...DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT LETTING THE PEOPLE LEAVE!

israel has been condemned by the UN so many times for their human rights violations..i want someone to rationalize that and tell me why these condemnations are not warranted...

this is a conflict with two sides..yes..both sides have made mistakes..but seriously, stop justifying what is going in Gaza currently...where is your social consciousness..??s

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear your view is very one sided...but you say it's not....i think any logical person knows that mistakes have been made on both sides....but to compare the current actions to, your friends having to run into bomb shelters, is just an attempt to water down the horror that is being place on the people of Gaza..it's not the same thing! not to say that what has happened to the Jewish people is right..i can understand how scary it must be to hear those sirens and to have to seek shelter...i totally get it.. your rationalizations are just an attempt to take the focus off of the issue at hand... yes, the people of israel have to also live in fear...but they are not being slaughtered.....they are not suffering as the people of Gaza are..they have basic liberties....they have basic human rights...they have access to medical care..they have the ability to FLEE...DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT LETTING THE PEOPLE LEAVE! israel has been condemned by the UN so many times for their human rights violations..i want someone to rationalize that and tell me why these condemnations are not warranted... this is a conflict with two sides..yes..both sides have made mistakes..but seriously, stop justifying what is going in Gaza currently...where is your social consciousness..??s

Instead of reading with the intention of responding, read with the intention of understanding what I'm saying. Then we'll talk.

As for medical care, I believe I posted an article early in this thread showing one of many reactions to the offer of medical care in Gaza.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade Instead of reading with the intention of responding, read with the intention of understanding what I'm saying. Then we'll talk. As for medical care, I believe I posted an article early in this thread showing one of many reactions to the offer of medical care in Gaza.

i understood everything you said...and i feel that your words are just trying to water down the issue at hand....but let's just agree to disagree....

while i'm more concerned about the death of innocent humans and have stated many times that i do understand the other side..that mistakes have been made on both sides..it seems, you are concerned with labeling people as extreme because they are angry..we should all be angry....this type of shit shouldn't happen to any population...

unlike you, i am not willing to take the focus off of what is happening today and now.....

have a great day..

this is a QUOTE from David Ben-Gurion(Hebrew: דָּוִד בֶּן גּוּרִיּוֹן, October 16, 1886 – December 1, 1973) former Israeli prime minister and a fervent ZIONIST.

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there."

enough said...

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by UmmiE I think it will end up being another iraq or afghanistan

Those regions have been stabilizing to a large degree over the past year or two, so this would be a good thing.

Not that I am advocating for Israel to conquer the whole region; if they're able to eliminate Hamas or at least push them out to the fringe, then the right thing to do would be to return as much territory as they can practically return to the new government.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin i dont think there is a resolution to this at this time.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced exactly....let them battle it out until they are ready for peace....unfortunately, civilians will die....its a part of war.

Probably the sanest points in this thread. Strangely enough, a lot of Palestinians (that is, people actually from the Palestinian Territories) agree with this.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam I would arrange for a squad of men to infiltrate the school and take out the terrorists with as little civilian casualties as possible.

Great in theory, but that's exactly how guerrilla wars are lost in practice. It costs Hamas peanuts to mount these attacks, but the cost to Israel for a SWAT-style operation would be enormous.

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear children transcend everything..they are innocent....

Puh-leeze. It's precisely this sentiment that's used to justify some of the worst atrocities.

Children are not as innocent as you think. Not teenagers, anyway. We aren't talking about 5-year-olds here.

___________________
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9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by DarV this is a QUOTE from David Ben-Gurion(Hebrew: דָּוִד בֶּן גּוּרִיּוֹן, October 16, 1886 – December 1, 1973) former Israeli prime minister and a fervent ZIONIST. "I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there." enough said...

Is there a reason you chose not to properly finish the quote with, "Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out"?

Regardless - I don't know what you're trying to say with this.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Great in theory, but that's exactly how guerrilla wars are lost in practice. It costs Hamas peanuts to mount these attacks, but the cost to Israel for a SWAT-style operation would be enormous.

so how much is child's life then?

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty so how much is child's life then?

You tell me.

It's far from unusual for them to use children as weapons and shields - and further, as media tools.

Why didn't this outcry exist when little kids were sent to explode in Israeli cities?