yea. i key stuff and then send samples to a friend to verify. but i only find 30% and its usualy the first one i try to key thats right.. weird.

iv read this whole thread and it is so imformative and helpfull
after just reading the thread you can tell what sets the top world dj's apart from the locals you see and think 'they can mix just as good' .. theres alot more to it and this thread covers so much

what someone should do is email the people at disogs and see about adding this as an optional feature to releases.

i tihnk that would be easier than creating an entirely different database.

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i have a theory.. sort of.. its pretty much just making whats known a little simpler for me..
the following is going by the musical scale of + and - semi-tones? (not sure)

with camelot system +1 gives positive energy and -1 give negative energy
on the musical scale, this is +7 semi-tones and +5 semi-toned
i think they selected this because minor and major chrods all use the 7th note from the tonic note.

according to nem a jump of +3 semi tones works well (because the 3rd note from tonic is part of a minor chord)
aswell +4 semitone jump also works because it is part of a major chord

so according to this +3, +4, +7 all have positive energy.
+5 has negative energy.

also going up one semitone creates positive enegry but must be done quickly because it may clash, also taking one semitone away decreases energy.
+1 = positive energy
-1 = negative energy
if you work with the C note, -1 is B, this is the same as +11
if you go from C to B in the same octave its +11. im going to work with +11 rather then -1 as negative energy

so far:
positive energy = +3, +4, +7, +1
negative energy - +5 +11

going back to how camelot works, +7 = positive +5 = negative..
this can be switched around if you think about it and work sort of like a clock,
-5 is the same as +7
+5 is the same as -7

we know that +7 adds energy, also +3 and +4 do too
+3 is the same as -9
+4 is the same as -8

+9 is the same as -3
+8 is the same as -4

if you work it out like how camelot does, this means with +3 and +4 adding energy, +9 and +8 (same as -3 and -4) would take away energy.

so we have:
positive: +3 +4 +7 +1
negative: +9 +8 +5 +11
this leaves +2, +6, +10
im assuming if you jump 2 semitones it also adds energy
so: +2 is jumping up two semitones, +10 is jumping down two semitones

positive: +3 +4 +7 +1 +2
negative: +9 +8 +5 +11 +10

now we are left with +6. we also have +12 if you want but that keeps the energy the same as its the same key.
so +6 is left all alone? im not sure what to work out of this, maybe it also keeps the energy the same but someone can work that out

now we have which keys mix well and which done (in general)

REMEMBER: iv been working in the musical scale (cromatic scale? im not sure what its called)

this is alot more confusing then the camelot system but it seems to work out in my head and im going to go by it..

im assuming i ordered the last part acording to the jump in energy?
+3 being relativly small and +2 being large
this would make the same for negative, +9 being small leap negative and +10 being large. (im not sure if that is correct someone help me out here)

ok.. well thats just my theory.. im not sure if it works well as im just picking up on harmonic mixing and dont yet know how to key tunes, aswell i cant really pick up a lift in energy too well, i can just tell what sounds good when mixing.

going by the above post i made im going to try set out rather then jump in energy, the sound of it, and how good it sounds..

positive: +3 +4 +7 +1 +2
negative: +9 +8 +5 +11 +10

+3 is the note used in minor
+9 is associated with +3 so lets keep them the same

+4 is the note used in major
+8 is associated with +4 so lets also keep these two the same

im assuming the +3, +9 would sound the best in minor chords
+4, +8 sounding best in major chords
(i mean, when mixing two tracks out of minor/major keys)

so +7 sounds the best because its used in both major and minor

+1 would sound bad if mixed (keep +11 with +1)
+2 would sound also bad, worse then +1 i assume (keep +10 with +2)

so, in order of best sounding (maybe?)
MINOR
positive: +7 +3 +4 +1 +2
negative: +5 +9 +8 +11 +10
MAJOR
positive: +7 +4 +3 +1 +2
negative: +5 +8 +9 +11 +10

since most tracks are in minor lets just use the minor one:
positive: +7 +3 +4 +1 +2
negative: +5 +9 +8 +11 +10

now the order with largest jump:
positive: +3 +4 +7 +1 +2
negative: +9 +8 +5 +11 +10

so, +7 would sound the best and do a average jump
+3 would do a small jump and sound quite good
+4 would do a bigger jump sound a little worse
+1 would do a large jump, sound quite bad (unless done right, switching fast)
+2 would do the biggest jump, but sound the worst
+12 sounds the best, keeps the same energy
+6 = duno yet.

for some reason i think im a little bit off? but im just putting ideas out someone correct me, thanx

ok, third post hehe
after working all that out, the energy jumps and best sounding mixes are basically the same for major and minor.. so working out the major and minor of tracks gives you the ability to work out if +3 or +4 sounds better? it also lets you mix to the relative minor/major.. so.. there isnt much use of major and minor is there? the camelot system adds +7 for minor AND major, they are the same except shifted over a little bit.. so for the best sounding mix, minor or major, you +7.. i spose since there are some majors out there working out the major helps if you dont like mixing a major to +7 minor? do they still sound the relativly good?
maybe thats why that big dj didnt write major/minor on his cd's (posted earlier in the tread).. because the jump in energy are pretty much the same and so is the quality of the mix..
so, does working out major and minor really matter? i mean it does if you want the best sounding mixes but they dont really sound that bad mixing from a major to +7 minor? im not sure as i said im still new but if the above theory works out then minor/major doesnt really matter as much in my head i dont think?

[EDIT]:
just want to add some more..
i think the jump in energy is more important to how the mix sounds (to the people you are playing to)..
how good the mix sounds only really effects DJ's and people that know how it sounds..
i read before people on xtc always want to have more energy given to them, so you would ALWAYS move up in energy..
would u move down in energy if you wanted to play a track that moves down? or would you take that track and put it back, and select another one that moves up in energy?
i think its subconsious (spelling) and even if your not on any drugs a lift in energy is good, weather it sounds bad or not
so you can have the best sounding mix, but sometimes go down in energy
or you could have a good sounding mix and go higher and higher..
or pick different tracks or select well and you get both, the best sounding set that always goes higher
i think this is what sets big dj's apart from the bedroom dj's that can mix well.. it can sound good, but if you go down in energy subconsiously people wont like it.. even if they do comment on how well you mixed.
anyway thats my 2c haha
also, all the above info is coming from someone who cant key tunes yet but has read this whole post and become very interested.. i used my common sence on most of it.. and boredom haha

anyway, im REALLY looking forward to what people have to say about what i think, as im not sure if im making any sence or being totaly wacko haha, but i think i make some sence..

Last edited by skoom on Nov-06-2005 at 17:53

quote:

according to nem a jump of +3 semi tones works well (because the 3rd note from tonic is part of a minor chord)

Actually the way I normally do it is -3 (e.g. 6a (gm) to 3a (a#m)) and +4 (The harmonic to the root).
This does vary at different parts in the chromatic scale though depending on octave and types of sound in a track so there is a certain amount of feeling the music involved.

As you correctly stated a jump of one on the chromatic scale or +7 in Camelots system would indeed produce a jump in energy but as you also correctly mentioned it would not be advisable to mix any musical elements of these tracks together as it would basiclally sound horrible. If you mix this in reverse you will get a drop in energy (Something I have heard a lot of hard house DJs do for some reason).

I find that moving up one or down on the Camelot scale can also produce a lift depending on octave.
Camelot's system basically works in the same way as playing a power chord on guitar. 9a to 10a contains the same root notes as an E5 chord. If you progress up in Camelot numbers you are effectively going from e.g. the root note (1st finger) of the chord to the higher note (2nd finger depending on your playing style) and visa versa if you are going down the scale.

I think you may have over analsised this some what though as it's quite simple in practice especially if you sort your records by key.

I mix the following ways...

-3
+4
+1
-1
+7

If you are playing a 12a and want to jump just pull out a 7a. That is a +7 (same as -5, but stopping thinking in that way because you will make it harder than it needs to be). If you are playing a 10a then jump +7 to 5a. Never go -7 as it will always drop in energy and feel.

Nearly all my tracks go in minor scales so I don't bother with Major stuff.

Some people get anal about what scale a track is in too but they you will just blow your mind and really limit your selection. Also if you are mixing at a point where that matters you are mixing parts with a lot of music in them and the chances of that sounding good are pretty slim.

Once you have your records keyed you will find that harmonic mixing is actually quite simple.
You will find that other things work sometimes too but stick with the above for now and build on that.

I hope I have helped a little.

Send me a PM if you still have more questions.

Cheers
Nem

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https://www.mixcloud.com/Calvin_Karass/

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Actually the way I normally do it is -3 (e.g. 6a (gm) to 3a (a#m)) and +4 (The harmonic to the root).

-3 on the camelot scale is + 3 semitones in the chromatic scale..
6a (Gm) to 3a (A#m) is +3 semi tones

also, +4 on camelot scale is +4 semi tones on the chromatic scale

so the +3 and +4 i was talking about work out (i think?)

edit: just to make clear,

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 I mix the following ways... -3 +4 +1 -1 +7

thats going by camelot yeah?
so, if it was chromatic scale:
+3
+4
+7
+5
+1

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 I mix the following ways... -3 +4 +1 -1 +7

Is that in order of Jump in energy or the ones that sounds better.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Some people get anal about what scale a track is in too but they you will just blow your mind and really limit your selection. Also if you are mixing at a point where that matters you are mixing parts with a lot of music in them and the chances of that sounding good are pretty slim.

This Got me confused
Let's Say I have a tune. and the Key is "E", now I don't know if it's sharp, minor , flat or major.

If I go to camelot Sound and let's say I want to mix a good sounding +3 tunes

I will see

12B (E Major) +3 = 3B (D-Flat Major)
5B (E-Flat Major) +3 = 8B (C-Major)
2A (E-Flat Minor) +3 = 5A (C-Minor)
9A (E minor) +3 = 12A (D-Flat Minor)


I noticed there are 2 Main Keys here (D) & (C).

No Let's Assume that the real Key of the tune is (E-Minor), All the results posted above will have a good sound?

I have four options here but If I choose 5A (C-Minor), that would actually be a +8, and I Haven't heard that +8 is a good sounding mix.

Can I mix from E-Minor into D-Flat Major, or into C-Major, or Viceversa from Major to minor? is this good or bad osunding, increasding or decreasing energy?


Thank You

___________________
Here are my latest mixes:
Pepa - Pure Bliss (June 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Visual Thoughts (March 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Trippin' Again

Mash-ups:
Perasma Vs BT - Swing 2 Gravity (Pepa Live Mash-up)
I Trance You!

ohh Another Question,
I know that the tunes change their key with the pitch change at about 3% I think, I'm not sure.

Let's assume I have a track at 135 BPM (A-Flat Minor)1A, and at 139 BPM it reaches +3%, that would make the tune be (E-Flat Minor) 2A?,

and at 131 BPM it reaches -3%, That would make the tune be (D-Flat Minor) 12A?


Also is the pitch % always the same or it chnages, let's say for example in some tunes when you add 3 BPM it will change pitch 3%, and in other tunes when you add 8 BPM it will change 3% pitch.

What's the Percent of the Pitch reffering to?

Also I noticed every change in pitch will modify the key of the track so IF I have a tune (A-Flat Minor) 1A at 2.50 %, it would be better to assume that tune is mor enear to be a 2A rather than a 1A?


Thanks Again.

___________________
Here are my latest mixes:
Pepa - Pure Bliss (June 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Visual Thoughts (March 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Trippin' Again

Mash-ups:
Perasma Vs BT - Swing 2 Gravity (Pepa Live Mash-up)
I Trance You!

A change of key occurs at about +- 6% pitch change.

If you change the pitch upto 3%, the change is not very noticeable, but in most songs, it feels a little more uplifting (i like mixing songs originally at 129-130BPM at 132, and in most cases i believe it sounds better).

Over 3%, the change of key is very noticeable, and not many tracks allow that (and especially vocal tracks).


PS. I have read this whole thread some time ago, it has a lot of information...

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Lost my circle...

has anybody got a good vst plugin ^for harminic mixing; like a real time key shifting plugin?

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Trance isn't just music.
Trance is Life.