quote:

Originally posted by CHRles And you, tathi, writing from Australia. What territories have you given back to the Aborigines? Were Sydney or Melbourne once settled by anyone else?

It pains me to admit but Australian history _is_ extremely dark and bloody, we genocided the aboriginal population here but at least we are taking steps to heal the rift between immigrants and the rightful owners of the land. Unlike Israel we aren't putting them in apartheid style open air prisons and collectively punish the entire poppualtion by bombing them back to the stone age and destroying their schools and hospitals and infrastructure so that they do not have running water and their streets are filled with sewerage and they have to rely on international aid so they don't starve to death.

I would be fucking disgusted with my country if we did any of that to the aboriginal population here. Fortunately we have matured a lot in the last 100 years. Israel is a very young country, lets hope it doesn't take 100 years for their government to realise that war crimes, apartheid, and barbarism is _not_ the best way to ensure peace for its population.

Last edited by tathi on Jan-22-2009 at 22:08

what an amazing, courageous man. only when the voices of Israeli and Palestinian moderates like him are stronger than the extremists that cling to power in government will there be peace in Israel / Palestine.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Commerce with....THE WORLD...hellllo?? Gaza has the Rafah crossing and a port, which Israel blockades with its navy. You want the border closed. I said fine, but stop the damn blockade and allow them to at least conduct commerce like every civilized nation in the world.

not to mention yasser arafat international airport, which was shutdown by IAF airstrikes in 2001.

EDIT it was able to handle 700 000 passengers a year

quote:

Originally posted by tathi what an amazing, courageous man. only when the voices of Israeli moderates like him are stronger than the extremists that cling to power in government will there be peace in Israel / Palestine.

fixed. realistically if it were said that he was a palestinian saying all that it wouldn't carry nearly as much weight...sad but true.

same goes for the protests-speaking of which, that vid must be bs, because chrless said only "you know who they are" get involved in protests

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton blockade, airstikes, raids, assassinations.

...of people who try (and succeeded once - thank God it was once) to kidnap soldiers, carry out suicide bombings and launch rockets and mortar shells into Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton It's amusing to watch your argument slowly fall apart, so now, instead of addressing my arguments, you'r pathetically resorting to attacking me instead. So much for thinking like a 5 year old...

You've been going around and around this "Oh where was I wrong?" line for at least 3-4 posts now. Grow up.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Wrong, both do give a shit about the other, otherwise Abbas wouldn't be calling for national unity meetings, or demanding the Gaza blockade end.

Yeah ... Care to explain?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../MN3215FAUD.DTL
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057961.html
I can find more of this, you know.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You'r running around in circles now. You tried to justify the occupations hundreds of checkpoints and barriers by attempting to compare it to the US/Mexico border. Clearly, you'r comparison is fallacious, as the US does not occupy Mexico.

See, that's what I'm talking about.
The Mexico border was an example to the fact that in every border you have check points. In the West Bank you have a lot more because alot of people are going through them every day. Those check points and barriers have reduced by far to almost zero the suicide bombings and shooting at Israelis, as I said before.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton LOL, you'r really speechless aren't you? 1939 is irrelevant. Your people are colonizing Palestinian lands with hundreds of "Israeli only" settlements. Keep trying to justify it...

Justify what? When did I justify anything? See, that's another example why some people here can't stand you.
I'll ask again - show me an up to date version of the West Bank. Till then, your argument is empty.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton How about Israel respect Palestinian sovereignty, then perhaps a real economy can be forged. Until then, no prosperous economy can function, when the damn country is being occupied, a system of apartheid is in effect, and commerce is stifled by hundreds of checkpoints. Hong Kong isn't being occupied. Is that too hard to understand?

Hong Kong was occupied, that was the point. And it flourished even then.
Apartheid? What the hell.? you do know that there are around 1 million Muslim arabs who live in Israel as Israeli citizens, represented by (corrupted) parties in the Knesset, right?
If Palestinins want a state, let them have one, I'm for it. But now you call it apartheid ...... Refer to the "5-year old kid" line in my previous post, please.
Another thing - If Jewish people want to live in Palestinian Authority areas - what's wrong with that? Because according to your rules, I can say Haifa is being "occupied" by palestinians and arabs.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Of course they want to kill you. You'r country has just killed/wounded thousands of them.

...because the didn't renew the so called cease fire, and for about 10 days fired 60-70 rockets in average to southern cities, directly at civilians, without Israeli reaction.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Commerce with....THE WORLD...hellllo?? Gaza has the Rafah crossing and a port, which Israel blockades with its navy. You want the border closed. I said fine, but stop the damn blockade and allow them to at least conduct commerce like every civilized nation in the world.

I see you didn't read about Karine A. Shame.
Well, read this:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1208422633228
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...JiSFQAD95SAOO82
I can find more of this too, if you'd like.

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quote:

Originally posted by buitre See, that's what I'm talking about. The Mexico border was an example to the fact that in every border you have check points. In the West Bank you have a lot more because alot of people are going through them every day. Those check points and barriers have reduced by far to almost zero the suicide bombings and shooting at Israelis, as I said before.

you act like the checkpoints are your run of the mill border patrol. they jurisdict over ilegally occupied territory and cut palestine up into tiny little islands, and you need permission from the Israelis to travel around freely. thats not what i call sovereignty.

drop this analogy, it is not fitting by anymeans.

quote:

Hong Kong was occupied, that was the point. And it flourished even then. Apartheid? What the hell.? you do know that there are around 1 million Muslim arabs who live in Israel as Israeli citizens, represented by (corrupted) parties in the Knesset, right? If Palestinins want a state, let them have one, I'm for it. But now you call it apartheid ...... Refer to the "5-year old kid" line in my previous post, please. Another thing - If Jewish people want to live in Palestinian Authority areas - what's wrong with that? Because according to your rules, I can say Haifa is being "occupied" by palestinians and arabs.

First of all, those Israeli arabs are as Israeli as you...even though on many levels they are second class citizens(ie taking away their political parties right before the election).

when Krypton is referring to apartheid, he's not referring to these people, he's referring to the stateless people that are at the complete mercy of the IDF. Israeli only settlements +roads in internationally recognized land is very shameless apartheid at that.

whats wrong with jewish people wanting to live in palestinean areas? the settlements are illegal. when a state is made for the palestineans if you want to move there under their jurisdiction(granted permission ofcourse by the PA) then i dont see a problem.
you can say haifa is being occupied by palestinians??you mean israeli arabs? it comes off to me that you don't see them as full citizens of your country. Israel possesses complete jurisdiction over Haifa, how does this classify as occupied?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi you act like the checkpoints are your run of the mill border patrol. they jurisdict over ilegally occupied territory and cut palestine up into tiny little islands, and you need permission from the Israelis to travel around freely. thats not what i call sovereignty. drop this analogy, it is not fitting by anymeans.

You mean inside the West Bank? Then you're right, it doesn't fit. My comparison is to the border of Israel-West Bank.
Inside the West Bank, well, after the peace agreements with Fatah will (I hope) be signed, I believe not a single Israeli soldier will set foot in there. I really hope and wish for that. I also hope PA will allow Jewish people to live in the West Bank. But right now, I see no other means to keep the lives of Jews there safe. I'd like you to suggest options if you can think of any. (And yeah, I know that there are some problematic extremists, Jewish and Muslim)

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi First of all, those Israeli arabs are as Israeli as you...even though on many levels they are second class citizens(ie taking away their political parties right before the election).

It doesn't matter to me if those parties were Jewish (in this case they were Arab/Palestinian - look up for Ahmed Tibi, he himself says he's a proud Palestinian with an Israeli citizenship), the fact is - they sided Hamas. If it was up to me, I'd take their citizenship. (You remember Hamas' charter right?)

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi when Krypton is referring to apartheid, he's not referring to these people, he's referring to the stateless people that are at the complete mercy of the IDF. Israeli only settlements +roads in internationally recognized land is very shameless apartheid at that.

Which people are stateless, you mean the people in the PA territories?
And again, show me which roads are you talking about. Plus, see my first paragraph in this post.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi whats wrong with jewish people wanting to live in palestinean areas? the settlements are illegal. when a state is made for the palestineans if you want to move there under their jurisdiction(granted permission ofcourse by the PA) then i dont see a problem. you can say haifa is being occupied by palestinians??you mean israeli arabs? it comes off to me that you don't see them as full citizens of your country. Israel possesses complete jurisdiction over Haifa, how does this classify as occupied?

On the same basis I can say that Palestinians who live in Israel are illegal. The only difference is that Jews who live in the West Bank aren't as safe as Palestinians who live in Israel.

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Interesting...

"Gazan doctor says death toll inflated"
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3660423,00.html

The original article is from the italian Corriere Della Sera.

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interesting...

"Former Mayor claims Holocaust death toll heavily inflated"

SOURCE

quote:

Originally posted by buitre Inside the West Bank, well, after the peace agreements with Fatah will (I hope) be signed, I believe not a single Israeli soldier will set foot in there. I really hope and wish for that. I also hope PA will allow Jewish people to live in the West Bank. But right now, I see no other means to keep the lives of Jews there safe. I'd like you to suggest options if you can think of any. (And yeah, I know that there are some problematic extremists, Jewish and Muslim)

i applaud the work israel has done do remove some of the settlers and compensate them. there is still however much to be undone.

67 borders..no "land swaps". i always here them saying 67 borders plus a few land swaps, which just means Israel is going to annex greater Jerusalem(including part of bethlehem).

after the two states are created...allow civil aviation to take place, free commerce, open port at gaza. also, a gaza-west bank causeway that could get guarded by israel over their territory, but allow movement between the two areas without ever technically entering Israel.

quote:

It doesn't matter to me if those parties were Jewish (in this case they were Arab/Palestinian - look up for Ahmed Tibi, he himself says he's a proud Palestinian with an Israeli citizenship), the fact is - they sided Hamas. If it was up to me, I'd take their citizenship. (You remember Hamas' charter right?)

I always had a respect with the amount of political parties in the knesset(not dominated by 2). we've seen the torch passed from kadima,likud, and labour in recent years. I also was happy to see the arab israelis getting their say in legislation...but they seemed to have reached a barrier with this recent ruling in the knesset.

LOL are you talking about "corrupted parties",
...Moshe Katsav & Ehud Olmert hahahahaha

quote:

Which people are stateless, you mean the people in the PA territories? And again, show me which roads are you talking about. Plus, see my first paragraph in this post.

stateless, you know, no passport, no vote in UN, no legitamate embassies around the world,and so on and so on.

there are settlements in places like Hebron, Bethlehem, and east Jerusalem for example. there are Israeli access roads to these places.

quote:

On the same basis I can say that Palestinians who live in Israel are illegal. The only difference is that Jews who live in the West Bank aren't as safe as Palestinians who live in Israel.

this is more of an immigration issue. if there is a guy who has permission from Israel to do manual work in Haifa he's not an occupying force. if he comes to work or cause havoc without permission he is still not an occupying force-just an illegal migrant/immigrant that has to be dealt with with respective customs organizations

More empty rhetoric from the DHC (Department of Hope n' Change):

quote:

Obama Condemns Palestinian Rocket Fire, Silent on US-Backed Israeli Mass Killings in Gaza Meanwhile, Obama made his first substantive comments on the Middle East conflict since Israel’s attack on Gaza. Obama first mentioned his commitment to Israel’s security, without affirming his commitment to Palestinian security. He condemned Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israeli towns, but didn’t criticize the US-backed Israeli bombings of densely populated Gaza. But in a departure from the Bush administration, Obama acknowledged Palestinian suffering and said Gaza’s borders should be opened to aid. President Obama: “I was deeply concerned by the loss of Palestinian and Israeli life in recent days and by the substantial suffering and humanitarian needs in Gaza. Our hearts go out to Palestinian civilians who are in need of immediate food, clean water and basic medical care, and who’ve faced suffocating poverty for far too long. Now we must extend a hand of opportunity to those who seek peace. As part of a lasting ceasefire, Gaza’s border crossings should be open to allow the flow of aid and commerce, with an appropriate monitoring regime, with the international and Palestinian Authority participating. Relief efforts must be able to reach innocent Palestinians who depend on them.” In further comments that could signal a departure from Bush, Obama mentioned the Arab League peace initiative, which would offer Israel normalized relations in return for a full withdrawal from the Occupied Territories and a just resolution for Palestinian refugees. The Bush administration had backed Israel’s rejection of the offer and its expansion of settlements in the Occupied West Bank. President Obama: “I should add that the Arab peace initiative contains constructive elements that could help advance these efforts. Now is the time for Arab states to act on the initiative’s promise by supporting the Palestinian government under President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad, taking steps towards normalizing relations with Israel, and by standing up to extremism that threatens us all.” While Palestinan President Mahmoud Abbas welcomed Obama’s comments, a Hamas spokesperson told Al Jazeera television Obama’s position does not represent change.

Source: Democracy Now

EDIT: And...

quote:

Noam Chomsky: Obama’s Stance on Gaza Crisis “Approximately the Bush Position” In a visit to the State Department Thursday, President Obama made his first substantive comments on the Middle East conflict since Israel’s attack on Gaza. Obama first mentioned his commitment to Israel’s security, without affirming his commitment to Palestinian security. He condemned Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israeli towns, but didn’t criticize the U.S.-backed Israeli bombings of densely-populated Gaza. But in a departure from the Bush administration, Obama acknowledged Palestinian suffering and said Gaza’s borders should be opened to aid. We speak with MIT professor, Noam Chomsky.

Source: Democracy Now

quote:

US Rabbis Urge Obama to Push for Gaza Ceasefire Lernerweb A coalition of American rabbis and other religious, cultural and community leaders bought a full-page ad in the New York Times on Wednesday calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for President-elect Barack Obama to convene an international Middle East peace conference. The initiative was led by Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun magazine. [includes rush transcript]

Source: Democracy Now

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Jan-23-2009 at 16:08

quote:

Originally posted by buitre ...of people who try (and succeeded once - thank God it was once) to kidnap soldiers, carry out suicide bombings and launch rockets and mortar shells into Israel.

What?

quote:

You've been going around and around this "Oh where was I wrong?" line for at least 3-4 posts now. Grow up.

LOL, then prove me wrong, or just kindly STFU about it.

quote:

Yeah ... Care to explain? http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../MN3215FAUD.DTL http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057961.html I can find more of this, you know.

What's your point? That there is a practical civil war going on, spurned on by the west? As I said, both Gaza and West Bank governments care greatly for the other. There is no Palestinian state without Gaza.

quote:

See, that's what I'm talking about. The Mexico border was an example to the fact that in every border you have check points. In the West Bank you have a lot more because alot of people are going through them every day. Those check points and barriers have reduced by far to almost zero the suicide bombings and shooting at Israelis, as I said before.

Yea, you have checkpoints on the border. You don't have American checkpoints dotting all over Mexico, with "Americans only" highways, and "Americans only" settlements. Stop using this pathetic comparison. America does not occupy Mexico.

quote:

Justify what? When did I justify anything? See, that's another example why some people here can't stand you. I'll ask again - show me an up to date version of the West Bank. Till then, your argument is empty.

WTF do you think? "You know, I can show you which areas Jewish people weren't allowed to live in Europe 1939." Here you are, trying to justify illegal Israeli settlements, and now you outright reject a detailed map of the West Bank because it's a mere 3 years old! LOL!! Like much has changed since then...

quote:

Hong Kong was occupied, that was the point. And it flourished even then. Apartheid? What the hell.? you do know that there are around 1 million Muslim arabs who live in Israel as Israeli citizens, represented by (corrupted) parties in the Knesset, right? If Palestinins want a state, let them have one, I'm for it. But now you call it apartheid ...... Refer to the "5-year old kid" line in my previous post, please. Another thing - If Jewish people want to live in Palestinian Authority areas - what's wrong with that? Because according to your rules, I can say Haifa is being "occupied" by palestinians and arabs.

Wrong, Hong Kong was leased by China for 99 years. Yes, apartheid, the West Bank is dotted by illegal Israeli settlement after Israeli settlement, Palestinians strictly forbidden. And again, another horrible comparison on your part. The Palestinians aren't building "Palestinian only" settlements, highways, and checkpoints inside Israel...

quote:

...because the didn't renew the so called cease fire, and for about 10 days fired 60-70 rockets in average to southern cities, directly at civilians, without Israeli reaction.

What incentive do they have not to fire rockets. Your country is blockading them. They have every right to fight back...but I guess in your world, blockades are not acts of war...

quote:

I see you didn't read about Karine A. Shame. Well, read this: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1208422633228 http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...JiSFQAD95SAOO82 I can find more of this too, if you'd like.

LOL, you act as if you'r going to change my mind by simply posting news stories. As I said, again and again, the Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. How about this. All American weapons shipments to Israel should be immediately halted. You couldn't count how many "Karina A's" stop by Israeli ports delivering the most sophisticated weaponry destined for the slaughter of Arabs.

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