quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby War sucks, shit happens, figure out how to not repeat it and move on, or don't start them in the first place.

listen, i'm on your side man... dude, i'm about as progressive and liberal as they come. i'd almost consider myself a socialist, lol.

but with wikileaks, i feel like there is information that the public doesn't see... but should be entitled to see/be aware of as it's vital to understanding what is really taking place. of course i don't want to see classified intel between us and whomever disclosed that will put us at risk...

that being said, it's not very easy subject matter to digest.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Where did I imply that?

you implied it by not recognising the public service that wikileaks performed by publicising this incident.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you implied it by not recognising the public service that wikileaks performed by publicising this incident.

lol there are plenty of other incidents out there worse than this... How about the bombing of the train on the bridge during Allied Force in '99? That was far worse in terms of casualties.

In fact, I watched a video a week or two ago where two Apaches engaged some Taliban, and some of them were obviously trying to surrender or were injured and they kept mowing them down with 30mm HE fire.

Bad shit happens all the time in war, if you are like "OMG BUT I DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE BAD THINGS" then you are seriously out of touch with the real world.

Horrible shit happens all the time in war, thats why its bad.

Here is the video btw:


At least they try and not hurt the donkeys.

it's hard for me to believe that you are as liberal as you seem to be... yet you are so incredibly desensitized/oblivious to situations when lives are being lost....

strange.

//edit... and i'm laughing my ass off that the donkeys didn't get slaughtered.

*sarcasm*

Last edited by Big Worm on Aug-16-2012 at 05:48

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby lol there are plenty of other incidents out there worse than this... How about the bombing of the train on the bridge during Allied Force in '99? That was far worse in terms of casualties.

irrelevant. i wasn't comparing it to desdren. simply pointing out that the citizenry shouldn't be shielded from the acts committed in their name, and as such, wikileaks performed a valid service in this instance.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN irrelevant. i wasn't comparing it to desdren. simply pointing out that the citizenry shouldn't be shielded from the acts committed in their name, and as such, wikileaks performed a valid service in this instance.

No one was shielding shit, they just didn't consider it relevant. It was one incident in what is probably hundreds of blue on green events each year in those theaters. It just happened to happen to people in the media and the situation was fairly confusing.

In hindsight should these people have been engaged? NO. But you were not there, no one here was, and you do not understand the tension and stress that goes on in combat situations.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby In hindsight should these people have been engaged? NO. But you were not there, no one here was, and you do not understand the tension and stress that goes on in combat situations.

I was there, man. I was there.
And I didn't WATCH MY BUDDIES DIE FACE-DOWN IN THE MUCK so that you could spout off this nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby In hindsight should these people have been engaged? NO. But you were not there, no one here was, and you do not understand the tension and stress that goes on in combat situations.

well, if no one was there, and YOU weren't there, then how is it that you can understand the "stress" of the situation?

--in both those vids, it was deplorable to see (and hear) the cavalier nature of our soldiers "mowing people down" and in the case of the vid i posted, mowing innocent people AND children down. absolutely disgusting.

go ahead and let them off the hook, you can cry fog of war all you want, but the tapes are what provide unfortunate evidence that to some degree.. our soldiers have run amuck, and we need to be (as a nation) accountable for these egregious transgressions. otherwise, we're no better then the people we're fighting against.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Worm well, if no one was there, and YOU weren't there, then how is it that you can understand the "stress" of the situation? --in both those vids, it was deplorable to see (and hear) the cavalier nature of our soldiers "mowing people down" and in the case of the vid i posted, mowing innocent people AND children down. absolutely disgusting. go ahead and let them off the hook, you can cry fog of war all you want, but the tapes are what provide unfortunate evidence that to some degree.. our soldiers have run amuck, and we need to be (as a nation) accountable for these egregious transgressions. otherwise, we're no better then the people we're fighting against.

They were walking around with AK-47s in a area where there was fighting going on.

The only way you prevent this sort of shit is not going to war in the first place.

People have this unreasonable expectation of war now, that it is this surgical, clean, thought out endeavor. It is not, it always has been and always will be a blunt, rough, and dirty task.

I understand the situation because I talk to people who do this thing for a living. They have been the guy in the helicopter or the guy in the trailer. I do not envy them or what they have had to do, but try talking to them, they are human too. They were there, with their comrades on the ground taking fire making decisions that could have affected the lives of their countrymen. You make decisions that put your guys lives over civilians a lot of times, is it always right? No. Is it malicious? Sometimes. In the end though you are there to wage war and as a support asset like a gunship you are there to make sure the guys on the ground come home.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby No one was shielding shit, they just didn't consider it relevant. It was one incident in what is probably hundreds of blue on green events each year in those theaters. It just happened to happen to people in the media and the situation was fairly confusing. In hindsight should these people have been engaged? NO. But you were not there, no one here was, and you do not understand the tension and stress that goes on in combat situations.

im not judging their actions (and lol cannot believe i mispelled dresden above haha). i know shit happens. but i think the public should know and be forced to understand the shit that happens. maybe they weren't "shielding" shit (i disagree, im sure much crap occurs that people would prefer doesn't end up on CNN) but i support the fact it was publicised anyway.

Also you have to remember that in situations like this people are not operating at their full mental capacity. The human brain has a natural aversion to taking life (for most people). When you get into a situation where you are forced to kill your brain begins operating on a much more primal level. You are no longer thinking with all your faculties, your logical reasoning skills go out the window. One of the main reason soldiers are capable of operating like this is the conditioned responses to these situations that they are trained to act under.

They aren't sitting there thinking "oh that might be a camera", because at that point they are in muscle memory mode. Everything they are doing is technically by the book and they are just going through the motions to complete the task at hand.

I suggest you read "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (Ret.) which explains how the natural aversion to killing, which often made fighters in WW2 not even shoot at individuals, has been slowly widdled away by training in the modern military.