quote:

Originally posted by Cal Guess which way I voted.

dude, weak. Have we forgotten how to speak?

take a highly liberal forum. then take the most liberal ppl out of the liberal forum and have them post about politics in here.

and best of all, more than half don't have valid arguments. Apart from JohnSmith who backs his points up, even if I don't agree.



no wonder the "wanker" vote is winning.


i voted, naturally, WINNER!

>JM<

Well this CAN'T be the first time you have heard /seen Bush equated with Hitler. I mean just the creation of the Patriot Act and the parallels between 911 and what happened after the burning of the Reichstag all those years ago should be enough. Not enough? Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place.

I stand by the picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Well this CAN'T be the first time you have heard /seen Bush equated with Hitler. I mean just the creation of the Patriot Act and the parallels between 911 and what happened after the burning of the Reichstag all those years ago should be enough. Not enough? Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place. I stand by the picture.

Are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? If you remember, Hitler had the Reichstag burnt down so that he could frame the Communists for it.
Also, Bush isn't exactly blaming the countries problems on Muslims.

quote:

Originally posted by JM take a highly liberal forum. then take the most liberal ppl out of the liberal forum and have them post about politics in here. and best of all, more than half don't have valid arguments. Apart from JohnSmith who backs his points up, even if I don't agree.

ha, it's nice to be recognized anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by JM no wonder the "wanker" vote is winning. i voted, naturally, WINNER! >JM<

hmm. maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's a fuckin WANKER? ever considered that?

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quote:

Originally posted by Cal Well this CAN'T be the first time you have heard /seen Bush equated with Hitler. I mean just the creation of the Patriot Act and the parallels between 911 and what happened after the burning of the Reichstag all those years ago should be enough. Not enough? Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place. I stand by the picture.

Hmmm yes I quite remember an American version of Kristallnacht. Or the Nuremburg laws of 1935 ... why yes the similarities are remarkable . This isn't the first time I've heard comparisons but they're all equally as unintelligent. While you're using such a stupid quote to reference the picture why don't you include the context within which it was said:

quote:

Perhaps the day's most striking scene came on Capitol Hill in the Rayburn room named after another powerful Texan, the legendary former House Speaker Sam Rayburn. Before a battery of television cameras, Bush appeared with the congressional leaders who will have a major say in determining his success in these divided political times. To Bush's right stood the Republicans, House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois, and Sen. Trent Lott, the majority leader from Mississippi. To his left stood the Democrats, Rep. Dick Gephardt, the minority leader from Missouri, and Sen. Tom Daschle, the minority leader from South Dakota. Bush had met with the Republicans before, but he made a point on Monday of spending time with each of the two Democrats. All five men took pains to sound conciliatory and Bush joked: "I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's okay. If this were a dictatorship, this would be a heck of a lot easier." Chuckling, he added, "Just so long as I'm dictator." More seriously, Bush said: "I've got opinions and they've got opinions. It's amazing what happens when you listen to the other person's opinion and we began the process of doing that today." But for all the good will, the difficulties facing Bush and the divided Congress were also apparent.

http://www.nctimes.com/news/121900/t.html

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Originally posted by Cal Compare the treatment of jews and muslims in the two countries. Sure it's not as extreme but the point is it shouldn't have been like that in the first place. I stand by the picture.

i dont see the US government quarantining and throwing arab-americans and muslims into concentration camps anytime soon...i know a couple muslims at my high school and they're just like every other ordinary person in the united states...its not like anyone is reporting possible "terrorists" to officials or some bullshit like that so comparing Hitler's extreme hate and prejudice and his slaughtering of 6 million jews to muslims in america is just ludicrous and pathetic.when you have muslims fly commercial jets into commercial buildings killing thousands of innocent americans of course there would be resentment towards muslims living in america...that sort of shit just happens...same with japanese-americans during world war 2 when pearl harbor was bombed by the japanese. its time for you to remove your disillusional head out of your ass

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Dude I just said that it wasn't as extreme!

But look:

911 - done by muslem extremists
Patriot Act - passed by the scared American public
Treatment of muslems, "freedom" fries, toast, boycotting of french businesses, etc.

Burning of the Reichstag - communists
German Version of the Patriot Act - passed by the scared Germans
Treatment of jews

And btw Im talking about the prewar situation in Nazi Germany, with the only difference from the US is the treatment and attitudes were officially endoursed and acted on by the government.

WAAAANKEEEEEER

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Originally posted by Cal Dude I just said that it wasn't as extreme! But look: 911 - done by muslem extremists Patriot Act - passed by the scared American public Treatment of muslems, "freedom" fries, toast, boycotting of french businesses, etc. Burning of the Reichstag - communists German Version of the Patriot Act - passed by the scared Germans Treatment of jews And btw Im talking about the prewar situation in Nazi Germany, with the only difference from the US is the treatment and attitudes were officially endoursed and acted on by the government. WAAAANKEEEEEER

They aren't even SHADES of each other. The burning down of the Reichstag wasn't done so Hitler could discriminate against Jews. The enabling act was passed so he could eliminate all other political parties. Furthermore once all other political parties were eliminated, it was utilized to remove all the constitutionally elected local governments in each state province. I fail to see anything remotely like that happening in the US.

Secondly, the Patriot act doesn't REMOVE any civil liberties. It grants the government more powers to conduct surveillance. The US government discourages crimes against Muslims or Arabs and those who committ crimes against them are often charged with hate crimes. And there hasn't even BEEN any huge public outrage or discrimination against Muslims or Arabs except for initially following 9/11. Once again, those who committed hate crimes were arrested. So I don't know what you're talking about by insinuating that the treatment or attitudes are the same in the US as they were in pre-war Nazi Germany.

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You might not be aware of it but one of the clauses of the Patriot Act allows for arrest and indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, just like in the bill passed after the burning of the Reichstag in Nazi Germany.

But here.

In both countries something of great magnitude happened, something that scared its residents enough to pass a bill effectively removing any traces of a democracy in that country, producing a spurt of nationaistic pride, creating much discrimination against certain ethnic groups and nations, finally culminating in illigal attacks on sovereign countries.

Now tell me again how that comparison is wrong.

Last edited by Cal on Jun-12-2003 at 19:45

quote:

Originally posted by Cal You might not be aware of it but one of the clauses of the Patriot Act allows for arrest and indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, just like in the bill passed after the burning of the Reichstag in Nazi Germany. But here. In both countries something of great magnitude happened, something that scared its residents enough to pass a bill effectively removing any traces of a democracy in that country, producing a spurt of nationaistic pride, creating much discrimination against certain ethnic groups and nations, finally culminating in illigal attacks on sovereign countries. Now tell me again how that comparison is wrong.

I disagree with the patriot act, however, it doesn't allow for the arrest and indefinite detention of citizens ... it allows for the detention and deportation of aliens who have engaged in terrorist activity or are under suspicion of such. Section 411 and 412 if you're interested.

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveill...triot_bill.html


Your implications that all vestiges of democracy have been removed are ludicrous. Especially since some cities are refusing to even comply with the patriot act (as they should).

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/D...riot020701.html

Furthermore the enabling act was passed with the explicit purpose of removing oppossing political elements and consolidating control. I fail to see that happening in this case. The system of checks and balances are still in place and states ultimately control state laws. Also I'm curious as to what widespread discrimination you are referring to. Especially since the patriot act itself contains text to ward off discrimination! :

SEC. 102. SENSE OF CONGRESS CONDEMNING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM AMERICANS.

(a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings:

(1) Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia play a vital role in our Nation and are entitled to nothing less than the full rights of every American.

(2) The acts of violence that have been taken against Arab and Muslim Americans since the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States should be and are condemned by all Americans who value freedom.

(3) The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is sacrosanct in American society, and applies equally to all religious, racial, and ethnic groups.

(4) When American citizens commit acts of violence against those who are, or are perceived to be, of Arab or Muslim descent, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

(5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets.

(6) Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing.

(b) SENSE OF CONGRESS- It is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the civil rights and civil liberties of all Americans, including Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia, must be protected, and that every effort must be taken to preserve their safety;

(2) any acts of violence or discrimination against any Americans be condemned; and

(3) the Nation is called upon to recognize the patriotism of fellow citizens from all ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds.

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