Basically, yes it's possible for God not to have a creator. But all I'm arguing is that if God doesn't need a creator to exist, why does the universe need a creator to exist? If God can exist without having been created by someone, why do people say that the universe can't exist without having been created by someone?

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Originally posted by Renegade Do you have any idea what the odds are of you leaving the beach with those grains of sand are? Does someone want to work it out? I wouldn't mind betting that the odds are far smaller than any of the odds provided in the articles - and yet all you've done is go to the beach.

If there's n grains of sand at the beach, and k grains of sand are stuck to your feet, that means the odds for exactly those grains of sand to be on your feat are n!/(n-k)!. So let's assume there are say 10 billion grains of sand on a beach and you've carried away 1000 of them. Now these numbers are too large for my computer/calculator, and I'm too lazy to make myself understand the integral formula which is supposed to make the calculation easier, so I'll just make a semiaccurate approximation which is about (10 000 000 000)^1000, or in other words, 10^10 000, add or distract several hundred zeroes. Much bigger than 10^690 that is needed to type a Shakesperian sonet, as djbaron said.

Edit: And, yes, I do know I'm a nerd.

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Originally posted by CortexBomb I'm not Renegade, but yes, that is one of the principal problems with a theory of ID, you get to the point where you have to explain the creator away in the same way you'd have to explain the universe itself, without the creator. ie: If anything as complex as the universe requires a creator, then you have God, but God must be more complex than the universe, surely? And as such he requires a creator, and he a creator, and so on down the line. At that point you're in an infinite cycle that's impossible to stop, therefore science minded people generally tend to not even start down that path and go with mathematical probabilities. Understandable given the alternative IMO.

Thanks Cortex u answered me perfectly.....still way out of my league....but thanks for explaining that to me.....

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Originally posted by Renegade Basically, yes it's possible for God not to have a creator. But all I'm arguing is that if God doesn't need a creator to exist, why does the universe need a creator to exist? If God can exist without having been created by someone, why do people say that the universe can't exist without having been created by someone?

Cuz then we wouldn't be created in anybody's image

Btw, does anybody else think that aetheism (going by the definition of the belief that there is no God) is somewhat hypocritical?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Edit: And, yes, I do know I'm a nerd.

Damn straight Mr. freezing point of Oxygen and Nitrogen at whatever Kelvin

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Originally posted by occrider Cuz then we wouldn't be created in anybody's image

Ah. Silly me.

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Btw, does anybody else think that aetheism (going by the definition of the belief that there is no God) is somewhat hypocritical?

No, atheism is a lack of a specific claim to knowledge, not a claim to knowledge in itself. Therefore, atheism is the lack of belief in a God, not the belief in a lack of God. Subtle but important difference.

Edit: Oh and thanks for the calculations, Tito. That number sure puts a lot of the IDer claims in perspective. :-/

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Originally posted by Renegade No, atheism is a lack of a specific claim to knowledge, not a claim to knowledge in itself. Therefore, atheism is the lack of belief in a God, not the belief in a lack of God. Subtle but important difference. Edit: Oh and thanks for the calculations, Tito. That number sure puts a lot of the IDer claims in perspective. :-/

So then what's the differences between aetheism and agnosticism?

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Originally posted by Renegade Basically, yes it's possible for God not to have a creator. But all I'm arguing is that if God doesn't need a creator to exist, why does the universe need a creator to exist? If God can exist without having been created by someone, why do people say that the universe can't exist without having been created by someone?

WOW thats some good points i never thought of....

i guess it comes down to people having "faith" over intellect...people "want" to beleive there has to be something far superior to anything we can create for, i suppose, a sense of security and comfort.

Not like anyone cares...but i personally beleive there IS a God and he DID create the universe, but he did not create human beings...i beleive we, as a species, evolved through millions of years...maybe God saw humans as future step in his creation but started us out as micro-organisms to see if we "would" evolve, like some twisted game of his.....how else can we explain tracing plant life back way before man - when God, according to the Bible, created man on the 5th or 6th day after he created the universe? or how we can trace dinosaurs before man? and what about neanderthals (sp?) and cromagnons which some say are man in stages of evolution?....until that can be explained to be then i take zero validity in the Adam & Eve story....but my thoughts are not on your guys levels so next...lol...

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Originally posted by occrider Cuz then we wouldn't be created in anybody's image Btw, does anybody else think that aetheism (going by the definition of the belief that there is no God) is somewhat hypocritical?

Well, believing there is no god is just like believing there is a god. Unprovable.

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Damn straight Mr. freezing point of Oxygen and Nitrogen at whatever Kelvin

55 and 63K, respectively

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, believing there is no god is just like believing there is a god. Unprovable.

yes that's what I was hinting at! Maybe I just don't understand the differences between Aetheism and agnosticism well enough. If aetheism is merely the lack of a belief (and not a denial in any way whatsover) then what differentiates aethism from agnosticism?

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Strong agnosticism is the belief that the first cause (be it God or the big bang or whatever) is entirely unknowable. It was originally coined by Thomas Huxley to define this belief.

Weak agnosticism can be defined in a number of ways depending on who you want to believe. Most of the time when someone says they're an agnostic it either means that they "don't know" whether God exists or not, or perhaps that God is, by definition, in some way unknowable, and thus it may be impossible to deduce whether or not he actually exists.

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