quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian You are very intelligent tathi, thanks As for the others, Palestinians ended the first uprising in 1993 to give Israel a chance to stop its aggression. The Americans would never even think of stopping their revolution to give Britain a chance back then. You're not supposed to give the murderer a chance when you revolt against him, but we have. We gave 9 years of Oslo. Israeli military kept killing civilians. They kept torturing people. Even before the first uprising, Israel wouldn't recognize Palestinian right to self determination. Who are you trying to deceive? We have let down our weapons countless times. You just don't hear about it. You only hear about it when some Hamas member has revenge. There's a lot more to it than that. Why should a defenseless people stop resisting the fourth most powerful military in the world that keeps taking their land, destroying farms, orchards, homes and trees? On what basis will the Israeli military end its occupation fully if we stop? Whenever negotiations happen, Israel takes more land and the wall keeps being built and more people are denied access to hospitals and schools. We have announced that if you end the occupation we will not fight you. And what do you mean Israel will cease to exist? Think about what you're saying. IT'S THE FOURTH MOST POWERFUL MILITARY IN THE WORLD. AGAINST ONE OF THE WEAKEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. GO back to Israel. Take your tanks, soldiers, roadblocks, checkpoints, settlements, your wall, your curfews, your collective punishments and extrajudicial assissinations, your gas grenades, and go back to Israel. Reinforce the border if you wish. But please, tell that annoying helicopter to move away from above my grandfather's house. His face turns yellow with fright every time he hears it hovering above the house. Get off my land.

myths²
Can you stop dropping standardic slogans and abandon over-simplification? You draw us a picture where brutal military meets a bunch of humiliated angels. Who do you try to fool? I've never heard a more naive description of the post-Oslo period, you're ridiculous!
"Israeli military kept killing civilians". That's teletubby level.

Until the beginnings of the 90s the PLO declared that it won't rest until Israel was destroyed. That was the official PLO policy, just like today's Hamas. It was only after American pressure (establishing a new "order" which began with the 1991 Madrid conference) that the PLO leadership started to accept a two-state solution. After hesistating long time (which, I think, is pretty plausible given the experiences Israel had with Arafat and his gang) Israeli entered negotations reuslting in the Oslo-agreements where the Palestinians gained de facto independence. Until 2000 the PLO controlled more than 95% of the Palestinian population. Arafat had long enough time to create a basis on which a final peace agreement could be reached. However, he didn't care about economic growth (despite the fact that no other people on the world received as much money from the EU / US as the Palestinians......If u wanna know where the money went I'd suggest you take an atlas and look for "Zurich" and "Paris") education, not even the simplest infrastructure or a regular police force. Instead of preparing his people for a compromise he kept insisting on the "holy right to return to palestine" or bullshitting about "dying as a martyr for jerusalem". He finally proved that he's not up to a peaceful solution when he rejected both Taba and the Camp David offert. It's simple and clear, no need to look for excuses: "General Arafat" (remember how he insisted on being called GENERAL when being interviews by CNN's Christiana Amanpour 2 years ago?) will never change the uniform to a regular suit. He doesn't wanna end up as a political leader with *responsibilities", all he cares about is his role as "marytr", fighter, rebell..whatever. He doesnt care for his own people. Neither do the other corrupt basatards such as the al aqusa martyrs, Hamas or Jihad. All they want is power and destruction.
Bottom Line: As long as the palestinian leaders will prefer Israel's destruction to fulfillment of Palestinian hopes and aspirations, you'll see the IDF reacting again and again. cause and effect is what they call it.

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Barak's offer at Camp David was garbage. But negotiations did not end. Another meeting was held in Taba where there was progress. Then Barak closed negotiations because of the intifada and because he was facing Sharon in the elections.

thats not true ,the offers was Documented and there were witnesses to this offers and for the refusal of the pal",and about the election shit,youve totaly twisted things around,the pal" thought that they will get more from sharon and bush and this was one of their reasons to reject the offer,other reasons are:they thought that the intifada will get them more cards on the next peace offer(as the presidential secutery said:"theres no rush to pick the fruits of the intifada right awey",the terror Org. leaders like the Fatah"s maroan barguti is the ones to agree the most with this reason,and as you know terror=no agreement),they didnt want to leave the "returning right" and many other reasons,and this is only making my facts stronger,beileve me when i say that the pal" dont want only what they deserve

quote:

Israel was never serious about a true two state solution based on equality and respect for the inalienable human rights of all people. The right of return was only a part of it.

not true,israel wants to solve this problem more then any one else,but you cant do peace with an authority that sometimes cant and mostly dont want to control all of its powers,and even sponsering terror, that will never lead to a pal" state.
like ive said,the international community is only admitting in section 194 that say that the refuges should get beck to their home,but not to their homeland=israel and also the international community has accepted some of israel"s sulotions to the refuge problem in Taba .
the UN is always right,you said it!you cant be selective about their opinions when you wants to.

quote:

1996 was a horrible year for Palestinians. I'm not asking you to believe my facts. You can choose to keep your zionist eyes closed, that's up to you. But let me refresh your memory. First of all Shimon Peres is not an angel. Either way, it was the second half of 1996 where it got bad. I believe Netanyahu was PM then. There is a lot more than what I posted below but I don't want to take more space than I already have. September 25, 1996 Gaza witnesses its bloodiest day ever, as the number of Palestinians killed in the Gaza Strip rises to 25. As of 18.00 this evening, 14 Palestinians had been injured in Rafah, six in Khan Younis, and two in the middle camps of the Gaza Strip. Israeli helicopter gunners are currently opening fire on civilian areas in Rafah itself. Israeli Defense Force installations are being reinforced within the Gaza Strip, while Israeli soldiers are continuing to use live ammunition against Palestinian civilians. After a period of calm this morning, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights’ fieldworkers report that clashes have broken out in Rafah, Khan Younis, and near Kfar Darom settlement in the middle of the Gaza Strip. Israeli soldiers are using lethal force randomly and the number of injuries is increasing by the hour. It has been reported that Israeli forces have continued to fire randomly at Palestinians in the West Bank, including at the Friday prayers at Al-Aqsa Mosque, where it is reported that three Palestinians worshippers were killed today and some 70 injured. Israeli occupying forces throughout the Gaza Strip acted without control and fired randomly at Palestinian civilians, killing many and wounding hundreds. This is evident from the fact that Israeli fire was directed at the torsos and heads of Palestinians, clearly aiming to kill or grievously injure. Also, high-powered high-calibre automatic weapons were used by Israeli forces. The Israeli forces reinforced their positions with tanks, armored personnel carriers, and helicopters and these were employed to fire indiscriminately into heavily populated in Rafah, Khan Younis, and near Kfar Darom settlement. An updated list of the names of Palestinian civilians killed, as well as any additional information available regarding residency, age, and the nature of injury follows: 1. Nura Musa Abu Sa’ad. From Deir al-Balah, 13 years old, shot in head. 2. Qasim Suleiman Al-Buhisi. From Zawaydah village, 16 years old, head injuries. 3. Mohammed Al-Bayumi. From Rafah, 16 years old, head injuries. 4. Hani Jalal Musa. From Deir al-Balah, 18 years old, bodily injuries. 5. Riziq Suleiman Al-Hawajri. From Zawaydah Village, 30 years old, bodily injuries. 6. Ahmad Salim Al-Najar. From Khan Younis, 19 years old, head injuries. 7. Mohammed ‘Abdul Karim Al-Astal. From Khan Younis, 12 years old. 8. ‘Abdul Majid Saleh Hamad. From Khan Younis, 23 years old, chest injuries. 9. Mohammed Fathi Hasballah. 20 years old, shot in chest 10. Hazim Fawzi Saqer. 20 years old, shot in head. 11. Rashad Khader Abu Quta. 18 years old, shot in the head. 12. Hassan Mohammed al-Yazji. From Jabaliya, 28 years old, shot in the head. In addition, at least 315 wounded Palestinians have been treated in the Gaza Strip’s three main hospitals and in several clinics in Rafah. This number does not include hundreds of wounded who have been treated in other local clinics. A Bloody Day in the Gaza Strip Published @ 08.30 GMT (10.30 local time) 26 September From the very early hours of Thursday, 26 September 1996, a state of extreme tension has prevailed in the Gaza Strip, as protests, sparked by the massacre of Palestinian civilians at the hands of the Israeli armed forces in the West Bank, erupted throughout the Gaza Strip. Incidents of protest and violence have been concentrated in areas close to Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and near crossroads controlled by Israeli military forces, especially in the areas of Kfar Dorom and Netsarim in the middle of the Gaza Strip, in Rafah, and around the Erez checkpoint on the northern border of the Gaza Strip with Israel. A special team from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights is closely monitoring the events which are currently occurring all over the Gaza Strip. Our field workers have reported that Israeli soldiers are using excessive force and shooting randomly at demonstrating Palestinian civilians, in clashes the likes of which have not been seen since the redeployment of Israeli forces in May 1994. According to information obtained by the Centre as of 08.30 GMT (10.30 local time), at least five Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli soldiers using live ammunition, including a 13-year-old girl, while the number of Palestinians wounded is over 100. Gaza’s hospitals are in a state of emergency, and the sirens of ambulances transporting more wounded from the areas where clashes are taking place can be heard racing through the streets. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights is calling upon the international community for immediate and urgent intervention to put an end to the Israeli massacres of Palestinian civilians and to stop the bloodshed in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The Palestinian Centre holds the Israeli armed forces and the Israeli government totally responsible for the deterioration of the current situation and for the killing of Palestinian civilians in cold blood. NOTE: The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has set up a special operations room to monitor events as they unfold, and will continue to publish information about the developing situation.

first of all when i said that there were terror attacks in 96 what i meant was the peres admin.
taken from BBC:

quote:

February/March 1996 Series of Hamas suicide bomb attacks, killing 57 israelies

keep in mind that there were no hard militery action aginst the pal" in that time and there were still Scuicide boombers,so what do we learn?and i addition we also learn that the militery actions under the netanyahu admin. came as a RESPONSE



and now about what you wrote,i saw some diffrente stories:
from BBC

quote:

At least 10 Israelis and 20 palastinians have been killed and hundreds wounded in two days of fighting --

besides that i havent saw what you wrote in any other objective news site(even though BBC is a little more anti-israel),do you really want me to beileve any section of the PO that spends billions on terror and scuicide boombers comes out of it sections?!



and here is more violations of the oslo agreements PO:http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/.../violation.html
notice the violation of human right from the PO as well


BTW:do you even like trance or are you here just for the poletics?

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant myths² Can you stop dropping standardic slogans and abandon over-simplification? You draw us a picture where brutal military meets a bunch of humiliated angels. Who do you try to fool? I've never heard a more naive description of the post-Oslo period, you're ridiculous! "Israeli military kept killing civilians". That's teletubby level. Until the beginnings of the 90s the PLO declared that it won't rest until Israel was destroyed. That was the official PLO policy, just like today's Hamas. It was only after American pressure (establishing a new "order" which began with the 1991 Madrid conference) that the PLO leadership started to accept a two-state solution. After hesistating long time (which, I think, is pretty plausible given the experiences Israel had with Arafat and his gang) Israeli entered negotations reuslting in the Oslo-agreements where the Palestinians gained de facto independence. Until 2000 the PLO controlled more than 95% of the Palestinian population. Arafat had long enough time to create a basis on which a final peace agreement could be reached. However, he didn't care about economic growth (despite the fact that no other people on the world received as much money from the EU / US as the Palestinians......If u wanna know where the money went I'd suggest you take an atlas and look for "Zurich" and "Paris") education, not even the simplest infrastructure or a regular police force. Instead of preparing his people for a compromise he kept insisting on the "holy right to return to palestine" or bullshitting about "dying as a martyr for jerusalem". He finally proved that he's not up to a peaceful solution when he rejected both Taba and the Camp David offert. It's simple and clear, no need to look for excuses: "General Arafat" (remember how he insisted on being called GENERAL when being interviews by CNN's Christiana Amanpour 2 years ago?) will never change the uniform to a regular suit. He doesn't wanna end up as a political leader with *responsibilities", all he cares about is his role as "marytr", fighter, rebell..whatever. He doesnt care for his own people. Neither do the other corrupt basatards such as the al aqusa martyrs, Hamas or Jihad. All they want is power and destruction. Bottom Line: As long as the palestinian leaders will prefer Israel's destruction to fulfillment of Palestinian hopes and aspirations, you'll see the IDF reacting again and again. cause and effect is what they call it.

FYI:research results show yasser arafat is one of the reachest people in israel if not the reachest,from the iraqi,iranian and other nations money to sponser terror of course,he takes some to his own pocket..

quote:

Originally posted by dj adagnitio what about the many years before the uprising began? before anyone took up arms? no deal was reached then

which period are you talking about? even prior to the al-aqsa intifada terrorist blasted busses and shopping districts at their discretion.

edit - oops i see trancegiant beat me to it

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, all I'll say it's nice to finally have a person who can shed some light on the conflict from the palestinian side. It'll be interesting to see how the situation will develop.

LOL you mean you don't know how this situation is going to develop? Has ANYTHING really changed since this thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...?threadid=92328

To be honest I only read the Israel vs. Pal threads for the funny insults now. Everybody has their minds made up and it's a waste of time and effort to try to argue anymore.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider To be honest I only read the Israel vs. Pal threads for the funny insults now.

haha, ya some of them get pretty imaginative.

quote:

Everybody has their minds made up and it's a waste of time and effort to try to argue anymore.

i both agree and disagree. although people may have made up their mind about who is more to blame, it still serves a point to clear up historical information. opinions are one thing but proving them and disproving them based on facts is still worth the effort.

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy i both agree and disagree. although people may have made up their mind about who is more to blame, it still serves a point to clear up historical information. opinions are one thing but proving them and disproving them based on facts is still worth the effort.

Yea that's true. I'll occasionally jump in to argue about a historical fact, but I've given up on arguing opinion and semantics. I think it was around Apriil or so that I figured out that I was arguing the same points over and over again couched in different words. Then in May I figured out that the only person listening to me was me haha.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yea that's true. I'll occasionally jump in to argue about a historical fact, but I've given up on arguing opinion and semantics. I think it was around Apriil or so that I figured out that I was arguing the same points over and over again couched in different words. Then in May I figured out that the only person listening to me was me haha.

heh,so true

quote:

Originally posted by occrider LOL you mean you don't know how this situation is going to develop? Has ANYTHING really changed since this thread: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...?threadid=92328 To be honest I only read the Israel vs. Pal threads for the funny insults now. Everybody has their minds made up and it's a waste of time and effort to try to argue anymore.

Haha, I do have a general idea of the outcome, maybe I should have rephrased it so here it goes: It'll be interesting to see how many posts will be posted in this thread before someone gets banned.

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1+1=10

I'm not drawing a picture where a brutal military meets a bunch of humilitated angels. I'm drawing you a picture where a brutal and racist military is destroying the lives of 3.3 million human beings.
This is not ridiculous, this is what has happened over and over throughout human history. But you don't use history to understand today. You would rather use your racist ideology of us vs. the "other" and since we're different from the other, it makes us moral and them strange and immoral. I'm starting to get theoretical here and I don't want to get into that now. I can't believe how far I have to go to explain something so simple yet so difficult for you.

During the Oslo period, the Israeli military would fire on civilians who were out demonstrating peacefully. It's as if the police fired on civilians who were demonstrating the war on Iraq last year-with tanks, guns, and gas grenades. Some of these grenades made you hallucinate pain on your body and you were hospitalized. They did kill civilians in cold blood whether you like it or not. Read reports from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and various NGOs.

I already covered quite clearly how the PLO accepted Israel's right to exist since the 80s and informally accepted the two state solution since the late 70s. I won't go over that again.

Who ruled over the territories during the Oslo period?
Through the Oslo Agreement and the agreements that followed, the Palestinian territories were divided into three types of areas:

Area A: The Palestinian Authority (PA) has complete security control and has control over civil administration. Area A today accounts for 18% of the total area of the West Bank and Gaza.

Area B: The Israeli military authority has responsibility for security matters and the Palestinian Authority has responsibility for some civil administration authorities. Area B today accounts for 24% of the total area of the West Bank and Gaza.

Area C: The Israelis manage all security and civil affairs. Area C today accounts for 59% of the total area of the West Bank and Gaza.

According to the Oslo Agreement, Israel has full control over foreign affairs and defense issues related to the Palestinian territories. According to these agreements the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to set up a defense or foreign affairs department.

Israel has complete control over the borders of the Palestinian territories. Movement of persons and goods through these borders are subject to Israeli approval. Palestinian police presence at border crossings is a symbolic one with no actual authority or power.

Israel has control over all roads in the West Bank and Gaza, with the exception of roads in Area A, and can block all movement of persons and goods on these roads. Moreover, Israel controls the movement of Palestinian civilians and PA officials both inside the country and while traveling abroad. All domestic and foreign travel of Palestinian citizens and officials is subject to Israeli army approval.

Israel has control over 80% of water resources in the West Bank and Gaza and complete control over the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip, with the exception of a very small area (8 km). The Palestinians have not been allowed to build a seaport, although the agreements granted them that right. Fishing boats are monitored by the Israeli navy and are not allowed to go farther than 10 km into the sea.

Produced by The Palestine Monitor,
An Information Clearinghouse
On behalf of the Palestine NGO Network (PNGO)

I've been there. I saw soldiers and checkpoints. PLO officials were sometimes there with the soldiers. But it was the soldiers who checked everyone.

Yes Arafat called himself "General Arafat" because Israel was destroying his infrastructure. I would say the same thing if they were doing it to me. Israel wants a fight, then I'll take up whatever weapon I have and my men and we will fight. You want me to go back to being a general, I will. It's what you are asking for.

We are still a people fighting to survive. We still have heroes to look up to and freedom fighters to fight with. But we're not trying to fool ourselves into thinking we can destroy Israel. But we will fight until the occupation ends.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

again,this is becuse all israelies are evil,have no soul and they want to kill arabs in their lives,sometimes i cry at night thinking: why cant we be more like the other clean and moral countries in the middle east??? Why???????????



























come on,how much time did you thought i will be serious with this guy?



BTW:this is pure bull that Pal" have wrote,arafat has admitted that he was involved with terror in 96 and said he will stop,but clearly he hasent,and in addition ive read tons of terror Org. leaders letters and articles that say they still dont agree to give up israel to have only what they deserve and as arafat said a couple of weeks ago in arabic:"jerusalem will not be divided into 2 parts like berlin,never!,it will be ours.."

the pal" propeganda SUckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Last edited by Viber on Sep-29-2003 at 22:41

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I'm not drawing a picture where a brutal military meets a bunch of humilitated angels. I'm drawing you a picture where a brutal and racist military is destroying the lives of 3.3 million human beings. This is not ridiculous, this is what has happened over and over throughout human history. But you don't use history to understand today. You would rather use your racist ideology of us vs. the "other" and since we're different from the other, it makes us moral and them strange and immoral. I'm starting to get theoretical here and I don't want to get into that now. I can't believe how far I have to go to explain something so simple yet so difficult for you. I've been there. I saw soldiers and checkpoints. PLO officials were sometimes there with the soldiers. But it was the soldiers who checked everyone. Yes Arafat called himself "General Arafat" because Israel was destroying his infrastructure. I would say the same thing if they were doing it to me. Israel wants a fight, then I'll take up whatever weapon I have and my men and we will fight. You want me to go back to being a general, I will. It's what you are asking for. We are still a people fighting to survive. We still have heroes to look up to and freedom fighters to fight with. But we're not trying to fool ourselves into thinking we can destroy Israel. But we will fight until the occupation ends.

Go back and read what I wrote: 95% of the *population*, not the actual area, the land. But since the Palestinians cried about being occupied and not 60 or 70% of the area, it's obviously a myth (repeated and repeated until, sadly, the average observer believed it). Oslo was always seen as a bridge, not a final dstination. Of course you can't expect Israel to create a Palestinian state from one day to another, now can you? You gotta gain trust, see evidence that going this way does indeed lead somewhere.

Nice how you're putting ideologies into my mouth! The racist argument is getting pretty lame and boring, to be honest. You guys complain about fearing the word "antisemite" whever criticizing Israel, yet its your own side which doesnt miss an oppurtunity to label Israelis and those who try to justifiy their policies, as "racists" and "nazis". Paradox.
You didn't even respond to one point which I brought up with regards to the palestinian behavior after Oslo. Note that I didn't even start listing the breaches against Israel ( palestinian terrorism form the territories which started in 1994!) but only the "domestic" problems. The failure which hamed the own population! Of course wou wouldn't care about difficulties between the Palestinians themselves, why bother and look at it the sophisticated way! YOU are over-simplifying and creating a "We" vs. "You" image. Not me. Instead of questioning Palestinian policy such as the nevereding agitation in the Palestinian media, you're repating the same slogans again and again. You drift from the essential to banalities which are not roots but symptoms of the conflict. Truth hurts, though.

The truth is that by "fighting" , as you so romatically put it, nothing has been achieved so far. Egypt regained the Sinai through negotiations, not through threats and killings. Syria was on its way to regain teh Golan, again through negotiations only. The Palestinians just needed to sign a fucking paper but didn't. They chose the way of force, and so far, they've only lost. A lot.
There's tons of evidence showing that Arafat was fully aware the consequences and yet (or therefore) chose this way. As I already stated: He simply doesn't wanna become a politician. From the very beginning of the piss process he called Oslo a "Trojan Horse" a means to an ends. he never stopped envouraging terrorism and hatred against the "zionists" and he never will. Can't wait till this psychotic guy on ego-trip will finallyfuck off for good.

P.s: By your "private" experiences you won't get any extra sympathies. I could go on and start describing the fearful life of the average Israeli, but it's only leading into the banalities which seem to be your central argument.