Well I'm glad you admit that you support taking someone else's land. There should be no excuse to it. There can never be coexistence with such a practice. And are you forgetting that most of Hamas operate in Gaza? A fence won't stop attacks. This apartheid wall is also a sign of defeat for Israel because they have failed to acheive peace with their neighbours. And if you learn from the past, walls have always fallen in the end. They were always a symbol of oppression and apartheid. This wall cuts deep through Palestinian territory, separating the West Bank into different sections. And it looks like the settlements have acheived their primary purpose. Israel is building the wall around the settlements therefore taking more land from the West Bank. The settlers, who had been violently oposed to the wall, became its strongest supporters when they were shown the new maps. Actually they were actively involved in designing the new path.

In the early stages of construction:
201,000 Palestinians are barred in enclaves, in severe violation of their rights under international law.
67 villages are separated from their means of livelihood.
2,800 acres of Palestinian land were confiscated.
83,000 olive trees were uprooted.
30 water wells were confiscated.
35,000 meters of water infrastructure were destroyed by the bulldozers.

History shows that a country can never acheive security or peace by confining an entire people behind a wall. The imprisonment of a desperate people is a certain recipe for violence and hatred.

The next planned phase of the wall penetrates, at some points, 20 km into Palestinian territory. If this phase is completed, 400,000 Palestinians will find themselves west of the wall, cut off from the
Palestinian towns around which their lives revolve. At this point, the Palestinians will lose 25% of their land. But percentages do not tell the whole story: This 25% contains nearly 80% of their fertile land And 65% of the Palestinian water resources. For an agricultural society like this, that represents a mortal blow.

This is a humanitarian crisis. Targetting civilians isn't limited to shooting at them or blowing them up. Taking away their human rights by taking their land, therefore their jobs and food and water is also targetting civilians. Confiscation of property is targetting civilians. The wall must fall.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian And if you learn from the past, walls have always fallen in the end.]

what past are you talking about?
the first thing that comes to mind is the berlin wall. it was extremely effective in stopping people cross the boarder.
from 1963 until 1989, almost 5000 escapes are attempted. Among those, 3000 lead to injury and arrest and 239 result in death. it only fell due to political reasons not sercurity (source). same thing i envision happening with this wall. when a peace agreement is finalized there will be no need for a wall.

so what if the most of the hamas operations are in gaza, not a single one of them was a suicide bomber, now if this were applied to the westbank there could potentially be a lot more. you try passing this high tech fence:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...rier/html/1.stm

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

please don't justify the berlin wall. This is apartheid. I showed you the results of this wall to Palestinians. It will not stop suicide bombers. I'm positive about that. Israel's poor are suffering because of the money that is being spent on the wall rather than on them by the way. I don't see any peace agreement being reached with the wall in place. People will still suffer. I assure you of that. As long as people are suffering they will find a way to inflict pain on the oppressor. You'll see.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian please don't justify the berlin wall. This is apartheid.

i am not justifying it, though my opinion on the matter should have no baring on this, i just wanted showed you that walls/fences are effective and do not always come down. many other countries currently have fences along their borders which are effective in stopping illegal aliens from reaching their country, i would hardly call that aparheid. A country has the soverign right to deny access to its country any non citizen.

quote:

I don't see any peace agreement being reached with the wall in place. People will still suffer.

stop being so short sided.
It's because of statements like this that i feel the palestinian people will never be able to negotiate peace. This wall can be torn apart as easily (if not easier) then it is to put up. To be so shortsighted where you think peace is un-negotionable because of this or any other situation is a shame (there agian is the all or nothing mentality palestinian negotiators seem to display). If anything i think it will draw the palestinians to an agreement quicker becuase they can physically see they are on the losing side (as yoepus said).

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Izzy, that is PALESTINIAN LAND, plain and simple...Israel is STEALING this from them. This is wrong.

Please dont sit there and say that this is the right thing to do.. that theft is the answer to this problem.

I think the Zionists are getting a little to selfish now...even stealing TREES!!!

Makes me sick

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Walls like this are a sign of racism. Apartheid to South Africans meant separation by race. Newsflash, this wall isn't going along the Israeli border anyway. It's way past the green line and into the West Bank. If you lost your house and farm to the wall, you would be against it too and if your country had a military, maybe your son would join to defend his land, but unfortunately we dont' have a military, so instead those people will join Hamas and Jihad and there you have it, Israel just created more hatred, more violence, more suffering.
The Israeli government isn't planning this as a temporary means. They're spending 1.5 billion dollars on this wall, taken from money that should be going to Israel's poor. 2 million dollars per kilometer of the wall. This wall is also has electronic sensors and I heard gun turrets but can't confirm the turrets at the moment. We have lost enough land to Israel. The West Bank is going to be disconnected into separate islands, this is what the proposed map for the wall has and the disconnected islands were also proposed in Barak's offer.
Hey buddy, you're the one who thinks peace is unnegotiable because of suicide bombers. The PA is always ready to negotiate peace.
And we were on the losing side since 1948, this isn't a competition or a game of football. People will fight for their land no matter what. We've already been through hell. Gaza is already the artificial hell on earth. No matter how much worse it gets, Palestinians will always fight for their land. You don't force someone to reach an agreement by taking their land and building this wall and taking their food. This is truly racism. You want them to suffer so they can realize they must reach an agreement. This is disgusting.

When Israel decides to sit its ass on the negotiating table, then we can reach an agreement.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

look, first of all its not racism.

Doing something against a people that aims to kill you is called self-defense. Israel is not building a wall because I just doesn't like Palestinian, its building a wall because it doesn't like Palestinians blowing themselves up in Israel.

Second, yes Israel can use the money to spend on its poor - but it choses instead to give them life. What good will food and shelter do you, if you will be blown up the next day on the bus? Israel is determining its priorties - it considers its citizens survival more important then their poverty.

Third, it isn't "Palestinian" land - its disputed, both have good claims to it.

Fourth, when the "Palestinians" had a military they used it - thats why they don't have one anymore (they lost it... numerous times).

Fifth, the South African apartiate government never built any walls seperating the races... walls that have been build have been shown very effective (Hadrian's wall, the Great Wall, the Berlin wall - all served and fulfilled their purpose),

Sixth, Israel is cutting down trees not for the olives, and not to deprive Palestinians of their livelyhood. They do this to create an open clearing so Palestinians will not snipe and attack Israelis from their cover as they have done previously.

I really don't feel like arguing with you.
First, there is no "disputed". I've already addressed this. It's OCCUPIED. Ask your prime minister. Ask the UN. Ask the US. Get rid of your extremist mentality. The West Bank is Palestinian land. And if you disagree, then it's not wonder your country is so hated.

Second, we never had a military. It was other arab countries that fought for us in previous wars. Either way it doesn't matter if we had one or not, point is we dont' have one now and therefore we will resist by other means.

Third, Apartheid is separation regardless of the means. Different coloured license plates is also apartheid.

Fourth, I don't give a shit what reason Israel is taking trees for, the result is that Palestinians ARE deprived of their livelihood.
My great uncle's orchard was plowed to hell last month in Gaza. There were no "snipers" between my orange trees or my cows lol. My great uncle's family lost a good source of income and the family tending the orchard lost their job and their food. I guess their son will hate Israel even more as his family starves. good job.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Oh yes, we forgot...the world revolves around Vibers 15 year old experiences...hhahahahahhahhhaha its so funny to read your responses, you really make me laugh at you. Whenever you dont agree, everything becomes "a piece of shit". I will take Gush Shaloms research over your idiocy any day Vibrator.

you idiot asshole i know whats happenning in my country more then you thats for sure,and look im only 15 and im much smarter and i know more stuff then you,but its ok,i know monkeys developes slowly then man
soo please STFU.
you will fit gush-shalom very well you stupid piece of trash,and whats that you said about my nick,cyrus-queen??!

quote:

Originally posted by Viber you idiot asshole i know whats happenning in my country more then you thats for sure,and look im only 15 and im much smarter and i know more stuff then you,but its ok,i know monkeys developes slowly then man soo please STFU. you will fit gush-shalom very well you stupid piece of trash,and whats that you said about my nick,cyrus-queen??!

HAAAAAA......

And its good that you know monkeys brains develop slower than mans.

cyrus-queen..that is sooo insulting

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Viber you idiot asshole i know whats happenning in my country more then you thats for sure,and look im only 15 and im much smarter and i know more stuff then you,but its ok,i know monkeys developes slowly then man soo please STFU. you will fit gush-shalom very well you stupid piece of trash,and whats that you said about my nick,cyrus-queen??!

Really, don't flatter yourself, from your rhetorics it was obvious already that you're pretty young.

And btw, monkey's brain structure develops and reaches maximum level much faster than that of humans. So if you're fully mature at 15 already, I wouldn't brag about it in your place.

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