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mndeg
;0



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: IL, United States

quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
I pretty much agree with you here. Not much more to say...


Agree here too. I wasn't really saying that homosexuals shouldn't have the legal right to adopt - I'm kind of in the "innocent until proven guilty" realm for that (i.e. let's let it happen and see how their kids turn out - but when I say see, I mean actually pay attention to what results from this).


I think the simple answer to this is that we aren't talking about race here, we're talking about lifestyle. Again, I'm not against gay adoptions per se, but if I were, I would be saying that the adoption boards have plenty of other requirements for adoption, they do screen their applicants, and I think they kind of have a right to decide who they feel is best for the child. I don't think that gays should be legally prohibited from adopting, but I also think that if the legal guardians are uncomfortable with letting that couple adopt, then they shouldn't be forced to do it.

In fact, I worry that any pro-gay legislation in this area would lead to the same kind of reverse-discrimination that we see in other areas - I worry that the legal guardians would feel compelled to let that couple adopt because they're gay, even if they feel like they'd be unfit parents for some other reason. Because, if they refused, they would probably get taken to court for discrimination and the couple would claim that they were only refused because they're gay, and the guardians would have to go through a whole long process of proving that they thought they were unfit parents... blah.

Gays like to "victimize" themselves like many other minorities even when other people aren't discriminating against them, and this is why the whole marriage thing bothers me. Adoption? Okay, it's fine, but let's study it for a while too, we're breaking new ground here...

I really do worry about self-victimizing, and I think I can say with confidence that this worry comes from experience with all kinds of minorities including gays, it's not a theoretical concern.



No, of course it doesn't mean that, but it would kind of serve to prove that homosexuality isn't something purely genetic, and that equating homosexuals on the same level as blacks or Arabs (who obviously can't change their skin colour or cultural heritage) is fundamentally flawed.


Exactly, and that's why I said, let's see what happens. Let's see whether or not this is really genetic. The proof lies in the grown children.


Not as such, because no such studies have been conducted - don't you agree that we should conduct them, though? If not for any other purpose than pure scientific curiosity? I see a lot of other bullshit studies and "junk science" being done - at least this would be a topic of interest and importance.


I agree completely. There are a lot of people that probably shouldn't be allowed to adopt (shouldn't be allowed to have kids either) - horrible parents that raise emotional wrecks or, even worse, abuse their children. Should known child molesters be allowed to adopt kids?

That's why when a child is going to be adopted, the guardians are supposed to screen the potential adopters and see if they would be fit parents. I don't think this should be written into law for gays or any other social group, but I think the guardians should be able to make their decisions based on any criteria they want without interference from the government. They are trying to act in the best interests of that child.



Again, I agree - parents shouldn't be receiving legal benefits related to child-bearing if they can't have kids. I like your original suggestion about making those laws for people who actually have kids, but somehow I don't think it will happen, we're being idealistic.


Ha ha. Once again though, I tend to sit on the fence when it comes to gay adoption. If they're going to raise kids when nobody else will, that's okay. Even if those kids turn out all gay, I guess there's nothing wrong with that.

Again, the reason I brought this up was to say that the adopted children of these gay couples are going to be the conclusive proof of whether or not homosexuality is truly something you're just born with and could never change no matter how much you wanted to.

Against gay marriages here, not gay adoption.


i don't think its possible to TURN gay
gay marriages - sure whatever
adoption - no


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Old Post Jan-04-2004 05:50  United States
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
Originally posted by mndeg
i don't think its possible to TURN gay


It is possible, as the social surroundings are often influential on human sexuality. Some societies who favored gays (Rome, Greece) had unusually large gay populations. I guess that's what made Roman demographic picture that bad. They tried and tried but could never get each other pregnant


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Old Post Jan-04-2004 13:39  Croatia
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prolikewhoa
veteran attention whore



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Berlin

what the hell do sports have to do with a child's welfare!?

oh no!!! my dad wasn't an all-star football player! i'm doomed for life!

what the hell does good parenting have to do with being good at a sport. that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. you think a person's sexual preference influences their physical activities? i've been in theatre for about 8 years...i know many a gay. i know lesbians on the softball team...i know lesbians who play hockey...i know gay men in football....i know gay men in gymnastics.

that argument is completely pointless. not only is it irrelevant if gays play sports or not in order to be good parents, but, just like other people, gay people can play sports too!

oh and drug tito- you can't choose to be gay. you can act gay, you can pretend to be gay, but you can't just wake up one day and say "i think i'll turn gay today" it doesn't work like that. gay people i know personally knew as early as 5 years old that they were different from other people their age. i said this a few pages back, but i'll say it again. they knew they were gay before they even knew what gay was.


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philippe - In MEXICO says: u deserve a fucking medal

Old Post Jan-04-2004 22:31  Germany
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
Originally posted by prolikewhoa
oh and drug tito- you can't choose to be gay. you can act gay, you can pretend to be gay, but you can't just wake up one day and say "i think i'll turn gay today" it doesn't work like that. gay people i know personally knew as early as 5 years old that they were different from other people their age. i said this a few pages back, but i'll say it again. they knew they were gay before they even knew what gay was.


No, you can't choose to be straight if you're gay or vice-versa. But a large amount of people are born inherently bisexual, so in their cases the society can cause them to swing to one side or the other.


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Old Post Jan-04-2004 23:22  Croatia
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prolikewhoa
veteran attention whore



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Berlin

in my opinion, bisexuality is either nymphomania or indecision. either you don't care how you get laid, or you can't decide which you like better.

many many many bisexuals i know are probably just still in the closet some but are all out gay.


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quote:
philippe - In MEXICO says: ur the most clever pothead i know
philippe - In MEXICO says: u deserve a fucking medal

Old Post Jan-05-2004 00:19  Germany
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Matt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada

I agree with anuneventrade fully.

Why gay marriage isn't fully legal and equal to that of the straight marriage is beyond me

I guess some people are either blind or dumb.


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Old Post Jan-05-2004 02:26  Canada
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by prolikewhoa
i don't know if this has already been addressed, i skimmed over the thread, but i think it's funny how homophobic people automatically assume that every gay person is the same and flaunts their sexuality and has parades and dress in drag and only have anal sex. it's ridiculous. not every straight person flaunts their sexuality, either.

the very reason that there are gay rights parades, civil rights protests, rallys, etc, is because there is a problem with them being accepted in their community.

if gays weren't discriminated against, they would have no need for parades to try and gain acceptance. it makes me so mad when people think that homophobia is okay because of the way a few people decide to act.

yes there are some gay people who embody the butch lesbian stereotype, as well as the effeminate gay man. who cares. there are people who fit all kinds of stereotypes. usually, in cases of intelligent people, an entire group of people can not be judged based on the follies of one person.

i have many many many gay friends, as i have been in theatre since 3rd grade. every single one of them knew from a very early age, even before they knew what sex was, that they were different from their peers. they knew they were gay before they even knew what gay was.

being gay is not a fad, a phase, or even a choice. it's part of who someone is. i can't bring myself to even fathom why someone should be denied the same rights as other people because of a characteristic they had nothing to do with.

gay marriage should be legal in ALL states.


Very well said dear.

quote:
Originally posted by rizen
[url]

PRESIDENT BUSH: As you know, I'm a person who believes in judicial restraint, as opposed to judicial activism that takes the place of the Legislative Branch.[/i]



Wow, what a liar. The fact that he would nominate a fascist like Priscilla R. Owen to the Federal Bench, whose conservative judicial colleagues have even referred to as a judicial activist, proves that. I suppose he's only against judicial activism if it conflicts with his views.


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Last edited by DaveSZ on Jan-06-2004 at 08:25

Old Post Jan-06-2004 05:30 
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rizo
rizoholic



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: sf south bay

where are all the christian radicals and the rest of the anti-gay marriage ppl who say it would degrade the constitution of marriage. why the fuck arent they speaking about britney and her super short marriage? thats a worse fuck you to marriage than two ppl who are in love. fucking hypocrites.

Old Post Jan-06-2004 06:40 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by rizen
where are all the christian radicals and the rest of the anti-gay marriage ppl who say it would degrade the constitution of marriage. why the fuck arent they speaking about britney and her super short marriage? thats a worse fuck you to marriage than two ppl who are in love. fucking hypocrites.


I'm sure they disapprove of her just as much considering she's admitted to sex before marriage ...


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Old Post Jan-06-2004 08:17  United States
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prolikewhoa
veteran attention whore



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Berlin

quote:
Originally posted by rizen
where are all the christian radicals and the rest of the anti-gay marriage ppl who say it would degrade the constitution of marriage. why the fuck arent they speaking about britney and her super short marriage? thats a worse fuck you to marriage than two ppl who are in love. fucking hypocrites.


wait what? britney who?

p.s. thanks dave!


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quote:
philippe - In MEXICO says: ur the most clever pothead i know
philippe - In MEXICO says: u deserve a fucking medal

Old Post Jan-07-2004 00:34  Germany
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rizo
rizoholic



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: sf south bay

http://slate.msn.com/id/2093412/

quote:
Dean's Kentucky campaign begins poorly: Letters received by Dean after he signed Vermont's civil-unions bill: "I was really sorry to read where you have allowed the passage of a bill recognizing queers to marry," wrote someone from Kentucky, "who vowed never to vacation in Vermont again." "I have been a Democrat all my life, but now that the Democrats are turning into queers, I am switching to the Republican Party. I hope you and all your queer buddies rot in hell."

Another said, "Dean Is a ****** Lover. All Homosexuals, Go to Vermont, Dean Loves You. All Normal People, Stay Away From Vermont. A State Full Of Perverts—Run By Perverts. Boycott Fag Run Vermont." On one fund-raising walk after the bill-signing, an elderly woman walked up to Dean and said, "You fucking, queer-loving son of a bitch."


lol









Old Post Jan-07-2004 21:15 
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by rizen
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093412/


lol




The South has always been a champion of equal rights. Didn't you know that?

quote:

Lights out: In one of Dean's first major decisions as governor, he sided with power companies in favor of a 25-year contract to purchase electricity from Quebec. Environment groups opposed the project because of Hydro-Quebec's damming of state rivers; human-rights groups worried about the fate of the Cree Indians, whose land would be flooded; and consumer groups worried whether the plan would even save Vermont money. The consumer groups, at least, turned out to be right: "In the late 1990s, Vermont's two biggest power companies nearly became insolvent as they struggled to pay what turned out to be high costs for Quebec power." Vermont consumers and businesses received "steep rate increases."

Not-so-green Dean: As governor, Dean turned out to be pro-conservation but anti-regulation, a position that some environmentalists find hard to reconcile. The state bought and preserved more than 470,000 acres of wild land, but Dean's administration also gutted or ignored Vermont's environmental regulations in order to land new business development. Upon retirement, the executive officer of Vermont's Water Resources Board charged Dean's administration with underfunding the state's Agency of Natural Resources and with politicizing environmental science: "ANR has not been given the resources to adequately do its job and too often the scientifically sound recommendations by ANR technical staff are overruled in final permit decisions by political appointees." (Dean's budget chief admits in the book that some agencies, including the Department of Natural Resources, were underfunded: "I agree that they didn't have enough money to do what they were authorized to do.")

In general, Dean showed a disdain for Vermont's legal and regulatory processes in favor of ad hoc deal-making and what he called "common sense" and "reason." Dean's critics say he abandoned a 20-year approach of appointing locally respected officials to environmental commissions. Instead, he "seems to have looked to people who wouldn't oppose his philosophy, who wouldn't demand tiresome scientific data and who wouldn't mind working for a governor who might inject himself in cases," writes Hamilton E. Davis, former managing editor of the Burlington Free Press. Some of Dean's defenders argue that he "never really understood the damage he was doing to the regulatory system."



That more or less cancels out the good he did with the civil unions thing though.


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Old Post Jan-08-2004 04:11 
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Gay Marrages
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