quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz The wording of his comment was a bit disrespectful to the Iranians, but he does have a point about their building practices. According to the Guardian, many of the houses were built using mud and shoddy construction.

Hmmmmm, thats because it was a 2000 year old area as i said before, they didn't delibretly build it with mud. Have you even seen the proper houses in Iran, they're strong as hell...

this area being a ancient area, wouldn't building newer architechure wipe out its historical value and significance?

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Originally posted by Dopey 9/11 - under 3000 deaths - has occured once in 10 million years iran - a shitload more deaths - has occured a shitload of times in 10 million years

Yes, indeed, there has been only one muslim attack on 11.9. against the US skyscrapers with an airplane in the last 10 million years. But, what you should notice was that there were many terrorist attacks against the US in the past few years, and one of those attacks did infact target the WTC. Prior to that, two US embassies were destroyed. So there was, and still is an imminent threat against US targets worldwide, as well as those on the american soil. Infact, if we take the last 10 years instead of the 10 million years interval, you will notice that the attacks against the US civilian targets were much more common than earthquakes in Iran.

And as far as the historical perspective goes, it's not just the citadel that was a historical monument and a part of national heritage, it was the entire city.

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Last edited by DrUg_Tit0 on Dec-29-2003 at 13:00

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis this area being a ancient area, wouldn't building newer architechure wipe out its historical value and significance?

no but an earthquake wiped out its historical significance...

i know Bam has not experienced earthquakes in the past god knows how many years but its common knowledge that the whole of Iran lies on a fault line - even several fault lines perhaps - so it would only be precaution to assume that Bam is susceptible to earthquakes.

The psychological theory is called disaster myopia - sit on a chair in public and you will never check below for a bomb. But if next week there was a bomb explosion from underneath a chair in the same place you would always check for a bomb - even though increased security would probably mean low chances for the next time.

All it takes is a low probability-high impact event to wake everyone up. But by nature they will fall asleep again.

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Originally posted by razmataz no but an earthquake wiped out its historical significance... i know Bam has not experienced earthquakes in the past god knows how many years but its common knowledge that the whole of Iran lies on a fault line - even several fault lines perhaps - so it would only be precaution to assume that Bam is susceptible to earthquakes. The psychological theory is called disaster myopia - sit on a chair in public and you will never check below for a bomb. But if next week there was a bomb explosion from underneath a chair in the same place you would always check for a bomb - even though increased security would probably mean low chances for the next time. All it takes is a low probability-high impact event to wake everyone up. But by nature they will fall asleep again.

- Ok.. but there hasent been an earquake in centuries on that area.. there are historic sites that are centuries old!!! never had they been affected.. how the heck should they know or take precautions. Just like I said earlier.. US is just as vulnerable at things like that. Hurricane Andrew wiped out thousands of houses and killed many as well, why didnt gov't invest in better houses that are able to withstand hurricanes?? .. knowint that Miami is in path of Hurricanes.. or why is California still building houses and this hole that in any many millions could die if this hole opens ( which is predicted to ).. see.. even by predition.. so come on!! .. this is nonsense really. I mean, I know is debate area, but debating on blaming Iranian gov't for this .. oh plz.

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Originally posted by LiquidX - Ok.. but there hasent been an earquake in centuries on that area.. there are historic sites that are centuries old!!! never had they been affected.. how the heck should they know or take precautions. Just like I said earlier.. US is just as vulnerable at things like that. Hurricane Andrew wiped out thousands of houses and killed many as well, why didnt gov't invest in better houses that are able to withstand hurricanes?? .. knowint that Miami is in path of Hurricanes.. or why is California still building houses and this hole that in any many millions could die if this hole opens ( which is predicted to ).. see.. even by predition.. so come on!! .. this is nonsense really. I mean, I know is debate area, but debating on blaming Iranian gov't for this .. oh plz.

I understand that absolutely... you can't predict earthquakes and Bam hadnt experienced one for a very long time - although tremors are common throughout Iran. I am not blaming the government for not being able to predict an earhtquake.

But would this low probability event force the government to invest in better housing around the country? After all the Caspian sea earthquake in the early 90s was a relatively higher probability one and many people died from collapsed houses. I would be interested to know how many of those have been rebuilt on stronger foundations.

im in full agreeance here with Liquid X

To blame the government on the structural foundations of the buildings and they being responsible for the death of all these people, is plain ridiculous....considering that an earthquake hadnt hit that area for hundreds of years...

Just look at the historical monuments that lasted until this earthquake hit.

Like Liquid X explained, DOPEY, why not blame the US government for the deaths caused by hurricane andrew in 1992?

If we take your stance, that government is more at fault becuase Hurricanes have and will continue to affect that region, they homes and buildings still seem to collapse when a storm comes.

How about the Missisipi flooding in 93. Many died, so why couldnt the US build a wall or some barrier before hand knowing the river could overflow...

Your argument is fultile.

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I was originally going to avoid this discussion of the Government of Iran being at fault or not, but since all of you guys want to attack Dopey, please check out this website http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3352479.stm here you will see that the Reformist and Conservatives, along with even hardline newspapers attack the government for the poor planning. The argument does not lie with the destruction of the historic Bam citadels itself, those were there and could not be changed. I believe it was in the buildings that people lived in that represents the fundamental argument. Comparing a hurricane to an earthquake is very pointless because the U.S. can track a hurricane and evacuate people who are willing to do so. As has been mentioned before, you cannot predict or track an earthquake. Maybe it is hindsight to look at this situation and say the government should have better housing for the people but it now seems the best alternative compared to what happend. The Iranian press certainly feels so. With that said I hope that the words of the Iranian government to rebuild Bam stronger and better will be the case, we don't need these kind of tragedies, the toll of suffering is priceless for society.

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I also don't want to drag myself into this. But to say that earthquakes don't occur regularly in Iran is not true. With so many deaths in such a short amount of time, I think something should have been done, in all areas. This could have been inspections, reinforcements, anything. Of course, if someone can show me that Iran was trying to do something, I'll gladly eat my words. Below is a list of Iran's major earthquakes in the last 30 or so years.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26137731.htm

quote:

Apr 10, 1972 - An earthquake with a radius of more than 250 miles struck southern Iran around Ghir Karzin. 5,374 people were killed. The quake measured 7.1 on the Richter scale. Mar 22, 1977 - 167 people were killed when an earthquake struck the southeastern coastal region around the town of Bandar Abbas. It measured 7 on the Richter scale. Apr 6/7, 1977 - 352 people were killed when an earthquake struck Isfahan province. It measured 6.5 on the Richter Scale. Dec 21, 1977 - An earthquake measuring 6.2 on the Richter scale struck the town of Zarand in Kerman Province, killing 521 people. Sept 16, 1978 - 15,000 people were killed by an earthquake which measured between 7.5 and 7.9 on the Richter scale. It levelled the town of Tabas and many other villages. Jan 16, 1979 - An earthquake measuring 7 on the Richter scale struck Khorasan province, killing 199 people. Nov 14, 1979 - An earthquake struck eastern Iran measuring 5.6 on the Richter scale. It struck a string of villages between Qaen and Khaf in Khorasan province, killing at least 385 people. Jun 11, 1981 - 1,027 people were killed and more than 800 injured. It measured 6.8 on the Richter scale. The town of Golbaf, 800 km (500 miles) southeast of Tehran, was destroyed. Jun 21, 1990 - 35,000 died and 100,000 were injured in the worst recorded disaster in Iran. The quake, which registered 7.7 on the Richter scale, devastated the Caspian regions of Gilan and Zanjan. Some 500,000 were made homeless. Feb 28, 1997 - A quake measuring 5.5 on the Richter scale killed about 1,000 people in northwestern Iran. May 10, 1997 - A quake measuring 7.1 on the Richter scale killed 1,560 people in rural areas of eastern Iran near the Afghan border. Jun 22, 2002 - An earthquake measuring 6.3 on the Richter scale razed dozens of villages in north Iran's Qazvin province killing 229. Dec 26, 2003 - An earthquake measuring 6.3 on the Richter scale struck the historic city of Bam, 1,000 km (600 miles) southeast of Tehran. About 60 per cent of the buildings were destroyed, killing at least 2,000.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's over 80,000 (assuming 20,000 killed on Dec. 26) people killed by earthquakes since 1972. With that many killed, I can't imagine the government wouldn't try to do something about the situation throughout the country. There is a clear record of earthquakes along with high fatality rates. Somebody show me Iran was trying to do something, and I'll shut my mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I was originally going to avoid this discussion of the Government of Iran being at fault or not, but since all of you guys want to attack Dopey, please check out this website http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3352479.stm here you will see that the Reformist and Conservatives, along with even hardline newspapers attack the government for the poor planning. The argument does not lie with the destruction of the historic Bam citadels itself, those were there and could not be changed. I believe it was in the buildings that people lived in that represents the fundamental argument. Comparing a hurricane to an earthquake is very pointless because the U.S. can track a hurricane and evacuate people who are willing to do so. As has been mentioned before, you cannot predict or track an earthquake. Maybe it is hindsight to look at this situation and say the government should have better housing for the people but it now seems the best alternative compared to what happend. The Iranian press certainly feels so. With that said I hope that the words of the Iranian government to rebuild Bam stronger and better will be the case, we don't need these kind of tragedies, the toll of suffering is priceless for society.

Its hard to predict when an earthquake strikes, and in this case, one like the magnitude that hit Bam never struck for centuries. I think its in the governments responsibility to invest in earthquake prone buildings, but it will take a long time to fully build these throughout the country. They have already done it in Tehran and other major cities. To blame everything on them is ridiculous.

It takes time. Lets hope these corrupt officials keep to their words.

With respect to the Hurricane situation, i was enforcing the idea that Andrew practically tore Miami apart. Why didnt they invest in better building structures? The whole population didnt evacuate... and thousands were injured by falling roofs.

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I seem to recall, not too long ago, a lot of blame being placed on the US government with regards to a certain accidental power outtage that occurred. I don't see why the Iranian government cannot be similarly critisized. Especially considering they have something of a sordid history with this sort of thing.

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider I seem to recall, not too long ago, a lot of blame being placed on the US government with regards to a certain accidental power outtage that occurred. I don't see why the Iranian government cannot be similarly critisized. Especially considering they have something of a sordid history with this sort of thing.

- After analyazing this topic, I've come to see that whenever a catostrophy happens, blame will be upon government. For everything. From Mudslides, to heat waves, to blizzards, to Hurricanes, to Torandos. Every country will have the blame upon government for this catastrophies. Is like a way to vent, or a way to blame someone. OVerall, I find it pointless to have a debate on this, because this can easily lead to blaming the US for all the deaths that have occured on mudslides, tornadoes, Hurricanes, heat waves and such.. or blame France for the recent Heat Wave... or Germany for last years tremendous flooding.. or.. the US once again for that terrible Earthquake that hit cali. in the early 90's.. for making such highways and buildings to not withold the buildings.. but you see, the debate will lead to nothing. Ive allready made my point though. And I think that the major thing that governments around the world should look upon is Global Warming.. that will cause any type of climate and atmospheric changes, but even that is up in debate.

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I don't think we're trying to blame Iran for the natural disaster in itself, we're trying to say that Iran should have done something to make the country more prepared in the case of a future earthquake.

I showed in a previous post that in the last 30 years there have been over 80,000...yes 80,000 Iranian deaths because of earthquakes. If 80,000 dead citizens was not enough motivation for Iran to take some sort of action to help prevent further needless deaths do to structural problems that could have feasibly been corrected, then yes, I will blame their government. Iran has had a history filled with earthquakes, so dismissing this earthquake as a "fluke" is rediculous.

As occrider pointed out, if a power outtage that led to a handful of deaths can be used as fodder to pick apart the American government, I fail to see where 80,000 deaths can't be used to pick apart another.