Thanks DJ Nuclear and Nemesis. This is very interesting, although it adds a complicated twist to harmonic mixing.

I find that is very difficult to mix harmonically without many records. Many times i'm playing a set by harmonic rules only to reach a dead end in the middle of the set. It's hard not having enough tracks to follow a complete harmonic set. Most of the time i have to stop not because i don't have a track in the following key, but because the tracks i have in key don't have anything to do with the set's flow. I like to start in C or D, then go up to A, play 2 or 3 A's, then 2 or 3 E's and then go through all keys to end in C or D again. It's great, because the set keeps changing a lot.

Mixing in key is not easy, and keying records is very hard.

On the other hand, mixing harmonically i can maintain a mix for 3 or 4 minutes, then play the second track for a minute alone, and then another 3 or 4 minute mix for a third track that's coming in. It's amazing, i find myself cursing many times because i don't have a third TT to cue the next record in time

I also found that sometimes the key rules can be a little bent - tracks which aren't in key amazingly blend in each other. Although this is very rare, and sometimes i have to use lower the highs or mids in the incoming track.

Last edited by borron on Jan-21-2004 at 11:22

Hey Borron,

Nice to see that you are really putting it to use.

As you say, you do need quite a large amount of tunes if you are going to do it that way.

Here is another type of mix you may want to try though:

Ok, this isn't meant for a long term fade or anything like that, it's actually to pick the energy up. You basically have two different versions of it.
It's important that you do this in a section when not too much is going on in the record as it will sound diabolical otherwise.

THE KEY CHANGE MIX
First version:
Get a record that goes in C minor. Play until you reach a suitable mixing point i.e. you don't have a lot more going on other than bassline and drums. Get another record of suitable style and make sure it goes in a C# minor. This track has to also only have bassline and drums in it. Mix the two parts together but make sure that the incomming track has enough bass taken out of it so you can't hear the bassline (If you do you will hear one of the nastiest key clashes you are likely to ever hear). Make sure that you have the records in phrase. At the end of the phrase just simply do a bass swap. Voila, you will get a nice little rise in energy as the key goes up one.
A lot of rock n' roll tracks in the 50's used to do this close to the end just to give that impression of renewed energy. Dogzilla also likes to mess around with similar changes so be aware if you are mixing his tracks.

Second version:
You can also do an interesting chord change that would still remain in key but would also generate another energy change. If you have the Outgoing record as C minor and then have the incoming record as D minor. These two may not sound so good together if played simultainiously but if you do the bass change over you can give the effect of a chord change (Matt Hardwick does this a lot). This creates more of an emotional change than an energy change.

Cheers
Nem

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hi guys

sorry to bring this thread back to life
but i was just a tad confused with a few things.

first and foremost. the minor scale.
are the keys of the minor scale not determined by

tone, semitone, tone, tone, semintone, tone and a half, semitone?

also equivalent to

2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2

the minor scale shares the same key signature with its relative/conjugate major scale, however, the 7th key [in the minor scale] is always raised one semitone is it not?

example, for a C minor.

Relative major scale = E flat major, has key signature, B flat, E flat, A flat.

from the guide's piano role diagram

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear Original Scale Compared to Dominant Scale (C minor vs G minor)

the C minor keys are

C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B flat, C

now, from what i learnt, you raise the 7th note one semitone
so the B flat, becomes a B.

therefore,

C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B, C


if what i say is true, does this not throw off the theory of why a dominant fits into the tonic key? the reasoning particularly for C minor into G minor was that 6 of the 7 keys are the same in both scales [from the diagram], however, if you find both minor keys with raised 7ths, you'll find 3 or 4 keys that do not fit in both scales.

so yea, i'm just a lil confused as to how the dominant and subdominant keys are determined. and the reasoning behind it. i noticed for all major keys, the dominants and subdominants are all major and for minor keys, minor.

but why?

i thought that the dominant triad in a C minor, are the keys G, B, D which makes a G major chord. so why is not G major? but instead G minor.

hope somebody will be able to clarify and explain this to me

cheers

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Ive jus installed MixMeister.. and got a few tracks under my Catalog..How do I find the key for it .. from there.


John

quote:

Originally posted by JayKuE hi guys sorry to bring this thread back to life but i was just a tad confused with a few things. first and foremost. the minor scale. are the keys of the minor scale not determined by tone, semitone, tone, tone, semintone, tone and a half, semitone? also equivalent to 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2 the minor scale shares the same key signature with its relative/conjugate major scale, however, the 7th key [in the minor scale] is always raised one semitone is it not? example, for a C minor. Relative major scale = E flat major, has key signature, B flat, E flat, A flat. from the guide's piano role diagram the C minor keys are C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B flat, C now, from what i learnt, you raise the 7th note one semitone so the B flat, becomes a B. therefore, C : C__D__E flat_F__G__A flat_B, C if what i say is true, does this not throw off the theory of why a dominant fits into the tonic key? the reasoning particularly for C minor into G minor was that 6 of the 7 keys are the same in both scales [from the diagram], however, if you find both minor keys with raised 7ths, you'll find 3 or 4 keys that do not fit in both scales. so yea, i'm just a lil confused as to how the dominant and subdominant keys are determined. and the reasoning behind it. i noticed for all major keys, the dominants and subdominants are all major and for minor keys, minor. but why? i thought that the dominant triad in a C minor, are the keys G, B, D which makes a G major chord. so why is not G major? but instead G minor. hope somebody will be able to clarify and explain this to me cheers

the scale 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2 is harmonic minor, not minor. harmonic minor has an augmented seventh. Normal minor is 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2.
Dominant/subdominant chords are in the same scale as the originating scale, so if c minor, then the dominant is g minor, and c major, then g major.

The guide will get an update next week hopefully, when I have some time because of spring break.

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The Ecstasy (MDMA) Bible Thread 2.0

quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

cheers for that dj nuclear.

i didnt actually realise there was a "natural" minor. just harmonic and melodic. if that's the case, is it more often that tunes are written in natural minor, harmonic minor or an even weight of both?

if both are used, curiously, would it also not be important to distinguish these types of minor scales in harmonic mixing? i mention this as it seems all minor scales are treated the same, when maybe they should not be so?

for example, i understand how harmonious a transition may be when changing from a tonic natural minor to a subdominant or dominant natural minor as there is only 1 key out of place when comparing both scales. however, when a tonic natural minor is mixed into a subdominant or dominant harmonic minor, 2 keys now become out of place.

moreover, when a tonic harmonic minor is mixed into another subdominant/dominant harmonic minor, 3 keys are out of place. this results in almost half the scale clashing, therefore, cannot be that harmonious?

would i be correct in assuming that the type of minor key being mixed is influential in harmonic mixing?

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quote:

Originally posted by JayKuE cheers for that dj nuclear. i didnt actually realise there was a "natural" minor. just harmonic and melodic. if that's the case, is it more often that tunes are written in natural minor, harmonic minor or an even weight of both? if both are used, curiously, would it also not be important to distinguish these types of minor scales in harmonic mixing? i mention this as it seems all minor scales are treated the same, when maybe they should not be so? for example, i understand how harmonious a transition may be when changing from a tonic natural minor to a subdominant or dominant natural minor as there is only 1 key out of place when comparing both scales. however, when a tonic natural minor is mixed into a subdominant or dominant harmonic minor, 2 keys now become out of place. moreover, when a tonic harmonic minor is mixed into another subdominant/dominant harmonic minor, 3 keys are out of place. this results in almost half the scale clashing, therefore, cannot be that harmonious? would i be correct in assuming that the type of minor key being mixed is influential in harmonic mixing?

The majority of songs are written in normal minor, with some examples of harmonic minor as green martian - harmonic minor, and dawnseekers - gothic dream (iirc), and an example of melodic minor is some psy, such as SUN project - at the edge of time.

Generally, the majority of regular trance tracks are written in natural minor, so you don't normally have to worry about it. It matters somewhat, but I don't know if there are better key correlations from other scales for those ones. I'll look at it later when I do the next update.

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The Ecstasy (MDMA) Bible Thread 2.0

quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

I can't seem to edit this anymore...can one of the mods maybe change that?

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The Ecstasy (MDMA) Bible Thread 2.0

quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

ok i gotta question

Cminor scale:
1st_2nd_3rd_4th_5th_6th_7th
C___D___D#__F___G___G#__A#

i know mixing into the 4th and 5th note of the scale works well and this is (what it seems like) most dj's do ..
in the guide i think it mentions that you can mix with any note of the scale ... is it ok if i were to mix from Cm into G# (6th note of the scale)... or should i only mix between 1sts, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths?

quote:

Originally posted by bent ok i gotta question Cminor scale: 1st_2nd_3rd_4th_5th_6th_7th C___D___D#__F___G___G#__A# i know mixing into the 4th and 5th note of the scale works well and this is (what it seems like) most dj's do .. in the guide i think it mentions that you can mix with any note of the scale ... is it ok if i were to mix from Cm into G# (6th note of the scale)... or should i only mix between 1sts, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths?

Any note in the scale is okay, but some are better than others (namely, 1st, 4th, 5th). I'll go over it more in the next update, which will *hopefully* be today.

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The Ecstasy (MDMA) Bible Thread 2.0

quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

In my experience it doesn't sound too clever when you blend them but you get an intersting effect if you do a straight bass change over. But if you are doing that it's better to go G# to C in that case, the other way round can give the effect of a drop in tempo.
There are better mixes for building energy and so on so this isn't one I do very often. The mix itself tends to give the impression that you are just returning to the original key rather than picking up energy.

Harmonic mixing in it's self is something that should be a core skill for all DJs but it needs to be more than just working out what mixes well. You also have to see what it does do a dance floor emotionally.
You can play the most uplifing set musically speaking in the world but it will mean nothing if you are going backwards in your scales. It's all about rising energy and flow.

Some of you guys may see it differently but that's my 2 Euros worth.

Cheers
Nem

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