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Originally posted by Heinz ........occrider isnt new. look at his registration date. also, ive seen at least 50 of his posts, there must be something wrong with your rank occ, cause your not an addict in training...

What can i say ... I'm a slow learner.

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What can i say ... I'm a slow learner.

ide have to say im pretty fast one

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Originally posted by occrider What can i say ... I'm a slow learner.

Cute occrider!~

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Originally posted by DigiNut Not really, since the USA's primary motivation in invading Iraq was to get Saddam, not establish a homeland there. The Israelis can't just pack up and go home... they ARE home. I mean, a full generation later, we're talking about people who have grown up in Israel their whole lives - do you think they're going to willingly just hand over their houses to Palestinians? Would you do it, if you were in their position? Israel is their home, and while I'm not saying that the land is "rightfully" theirs, I am saying that it simply isn't practical to tell them to just head for the hills. That arrangement will never work, if anybody wants peace down there then they're going to have to find a better compromise.

The Israelis are home in Israel. The Occupied Territories are not part of Israel unless you want to say that the soldiers and tanks are home. We're not telling Israelis to head for the hills but telling settlers, tanks, and soldiers to go back to Israel. To go back home.

UN Resolution 242 and international law states "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war". Therefore, Israel's acquisition of 67 lands is illegal. People don't win land by war anymore. I've said this before you came along. Conquering land is a thing of the past and is a grave violation of human rights in this day and age when that land is inhabited.

If you're against working with resolution 242 for peace, then you're also against a 2 state solution because the framework for a 2 state solution begins with resolution 242.

If you think that arrangement will never work, (and you're not the only one) then the only alternative left is a One Secular Democratic State. Give Palestinians the right to vote and Israeli citizenship. That might be the only option left (aside from kicking them all out).

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Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

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Originally posted by Palestinian If you think that arrangement will never work, (and you're not the only one) then the only alternative left is a One Secular Democratic State. Give Palestinians the right to vote and Israeli citizenship. That might be the only option left (aside from kicking them all out).

Yeah we touched on that before... I don't see any problem with that personally, I'm just getting the impression that the Palestinians don't want it. Has it actually been brought up in any of the peace talks? I can't see any logical reason why Israel would refuse that arrangement, but I might be missing something.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Yeah we touched on that before... I don't see any problem with that personally, I'm just getting the impression that the Palestinians don't want it. Has it actually been brought up in any of the peace talks? I can't see any logical reason why Israel would refuse that arrangement, but I might be missing something.

There are more Palestinians than Israelis. Israelis want a *Jewish* state, and feel that now that they finally have obtained one they will not risk its existence by becoming a minority. There was a thread on this topic a while back, and I seem to remember that at least TranceGiant and Yoepus were very much opposed to the idea.
I'd say that Heinz' idea is quite good (and, incidentally, also the one the road map is built on). However, it is not obvious how to divide (or whether to divide) Jerusalem: Palestinians have generally agreed to give up their demands for rights of refugees to return, and Israelis have generally agreed to leave the occupied territories. When it gets to the triple-holy city of Jerusalem things come to a dead end, though.

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There are more Palestinians than Israelis. Israelis want a *Jewish* state, and feel that now that they finally have obtained one they will not risk its existence by becoming a minority. There was a thread on this topic a while back, and I seem to remember that at least TranceGiant and Yoepus were very much opposed to the idea. I'd say that Heinz' idea is quite good (and, incidentally, also the one the road map is built on). However, it is not obvious how to divide (or whether to divide) Jerusalem: Palestinians have generally agreed to give up their demands for rights of refugees to return, and Israelis have generally agreed to leave the occupied territories. When it gets to the triple-holy city of Jerusalem things come to a dead end, though.

One solution to that would be that Jerusalem be declared an open and international city. No borders. No claims on territory by either side. Each side can have their holy sites, and anybody can visit them. Palistine, after creating their own state, then with israel, form their borders, make concessions, withdraw to original borders, as Palestinean said, the isreali military and settlers go back "home". Then Jerusalem be declared an open and international city. Jerusalem would become its own state, jointly governed by the Israeli's with the jewish issues, and the Palistineans with theirs. Jerusalem would be like Washington DC, which belongs to no state, and is essentially its own state, WHILE belonging tim the USA. Jerusalem would still belong to both Palistine and Isreal.

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Yes well you're all thinking rationally with goals of peaceful co-existence. Unfortunately those ideals are not the objectives of a certain minority of extremists on both sides ... so good luck acheiving anything at all. Count on them to propogate the tit-for-tat crises for quite a long time ...

The idea of Jerusalem as an international city might be accepted by both sides, I'm not sure about Israelis though. Unfortunately Jerusalem is not the biggest obstacle as Trancaholic said but the Right of Return is the biggest and most difficult issue.

There are 5 to 6 million Palestinian Refugees all around the world and I think 3 million in poverty refugee camps. Most of the ones in the refugee camps want to return to pre 48 lands (Israel proper). A friend of mine was working in Shatila over the summer and in the schools when the children would be asked about their dreams or to draw a picture of their dreams they would draw their return to thier villages.

UN Resolution 194 states that Refugees have the right to return to their land where they left from or be fairly compensated. And they have the choice of either one.

Problem: if Israel accepts 194, refugees would come to Israel and outnumber the Jews. Result: Arabs would have an advantage at the vote and they would most likely vote for one democratic state in all of pre 48 Palestine. Israelis want Israel to remain a Jewish state with majority Jews so they refuse to accept 194 and implement international law. Even if some refugees return it would compromise the existence of a Jewish state so I don't think Israel will ever accept the right of return not even part of it. Especially since now it faces a demographic problem cause the Palestinians in Israel and around it are having more kids and outnumbering Jews as we speak.

The right of return is one reason Arafat didn't come to a conclusion with the Israelis during the peace process. It's also why refugees hate arafat because they believe he would sell them out if he discarded their right to return.

An interesting point that someone stated recently was that when Oslo was signed, Arafat became a representative of 3.3 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and that's 1/3 of the world's Palestinian population. He ceased to represent the Palestinian refugees (which was his main struggle before the first intifada) and ceased to represent the Palestinians who live in Israel. At the same time he accepted Israel as the representative of world jewry. All Jews in the world.

To sum it up: Israel becomes representative of all Jews in world; Arafat becomes representative of 1/3 Palestinians in the world.

That's why so many Palestinians not in Gaza and West Bank hate him.

This is the most difficult situation and the one biggest obstacle to peace. Convincing Israelis to accept a one secular democratic state with the right of return is a dream. This is the challenge. We want to live with you, do you want to live with us? You could live on the west bank and gaza that way too. You would be the minority but I will be the first one to fight for your minority rights. After all, I'de remain from the smallest religious minority. But it would be fulfilling democracy and justice. After that resolution, the rest of the Arab puppet regimes will be in crises. The brutal dictators and monarch cocksuckers will see the perfect middle eastern state and their people will begin to demand the same. That's when we target the rest of the Arab governments, crush them, and call for democracy. That's when the rest of the Arabs will wake up and say "Look at Palestine/Israel! Look at the dream that was acheived! Look at democracy! We Want The Same! And We Won't Settle For Less! The people, united, will never be defeated!

Solve the refugee issue, and you've solved the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

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Originally posted by Palestinian There are 5 to 6 million Palestinian Refugees all around the world and I think 3 million in poverty refugee camps. Most of the ones in the refugee camps want to return to pre 48 lands (Israel proper). A friend of mine was working in Shatila over the summer and in the schools when the children would be asked about their dreams or to draw a picture of their dreams they would draw their return to thier villages. . . . The right of return is one reason Arafat didn't come to a conclusion with the Israelis during the peace process. It's also why refugees hate arafat because they believe he would sell them out if he discarded their right to return.

Really?

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'Riot' over Palestinian poll The issue of refugees will be a stumbling block in any talks Only a small minority of Palestinian refugees would seek to return to live in Israel if allowed under a peace agreement, a controversial survey suggests. Eminent Palestinian political scientist Dr Kahil Shikaki was pushed, shoved and pelted with eggs as he released details of the research by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research. Its poll found only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions. The controversial "right of return" issue will be a key part of negotiations if the current "road map" peace plan leads to renewed talks on solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even dovish Israelis reject risking a mass influx of Palestinians to a country already populated by 5.5 million Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. The passions the issue arouses were made clear when Dr Shikaki called a news conference to present his findings. About 200 Palestinian refugee activists stormed his Ramallah office on Sunday, smashing furniture, throwing eggs and assaulting Dr Shikaki and some other members of staff. "We are here to announce that our right of return is a sacred right," said a leaflet distributed by the protesters. "We will resist any attempt to sabotage our right of return." 'Skewed questions' Dr Shikaki's research centre polled 4,500 refugee families in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Jordan. He said 95% of respondents insisted that Israel recognise the right of return as a moral principle. But many were surprisingly flexible on practical arrangements, says the BBC's Barbara Plett in Jerusalem. Only 10% demanded permanent residence in Israel and more than half said they would accept instead compensation and homes in the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO's refugee department said the study did not accurately reflect attitudes in the camps. Some Palestinian analysts criticised the way the questions were posed, saying they were skewed to get answers that gave up the right of return in practice. Divisions Meanwhile, the dispute between Yasser Arafat and the Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, appears to have been patched up following a meeting on Monday evening at Mr Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah. It was the first time the two Palestinian leaders had sat down face to face since Mr Abbas offered to resign from the Central Committee of Yasser Arafat's Fatah Movement last week. According to Palestinian Information Minister Nabil Amr, both Mr Arafat and Fatah's Central Committee have offered their full support to the prime minister. The issue of freeing Palestinian prisoners held by Israel had been a crucial point of contention within the Palestinian leadership. And it has almost brought the peace process to a halt after Israel agreed last week to release less than five percent of the 6,000 incarcerated in Israeli jails. Israel accuses Mr Arafat of fomenting terrorism and impeding the efforts of his moderate premier to end the violence. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3065299.stm

Another one of those issues adopted out of "principle" by extremists ...

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Its poll found only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions.

I can understand how many palestinians wouldnt want to return to Israel if this happened.

But if they were ruled by an equivalent Arab ratio in the knesset im sure they would want a right of return.

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