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trancepixie17
Senior tranceaddict
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Drumline
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** I believe in God, and not to offend anyone. Cryus king and others have a right to believe in who they want, because the world lets them do that. In light of the fact, there is a God and there will be a day of judgement. To that you hold everything that you have ever done in your life, good and bad. There is no man crazy enough to "make-up" the Bible, so if you believe it is not real, there are problems. Most people do not believe in God and that's fine (for them) On the day that God comes down and takes all those who abided by his commandments (the Christians) , that's when you will see for yourself. Heinz is a very good Philosopher, and critcizing his work would make you degraded. Yes, everyone has their opinion, and I should not judge. Yet, did cyrus have a choice in who he wanted to believe in? I am open to learning about new religions, cultures, etc. The one thing God will not forgive in the end is Blasphames...(denounces God, or saying that there's a "god" above him.) All in all, no one is wrong, but to enlgihten you , there is one God. And judgement day will come.....
___________________
Explaining back sticking: "grip the shaft lightly, and tap the butt."
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 Feb-24-2004 20:47 
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart
Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
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What's wrong with me? I just can't f$cking resist this nimrod:
| quote: | Originally posted by LouisLaBelle
Energy can't be destroyed! it transfers from one form to another. |
Good so far.
| quote: | | Human energy our soul transforms into another form of energy after death that scientists can't explain |
If it's not explainable, and it cannot be measured, how does one understand it's properties? Furthermore, how can one draw conclusions based on something unexplainable?
| quote: | | therfore there is a heaven and a god. |
How does this conclusion in any way logically follow from your above premise of the unexplainable? How do you know something exists based on something that can't be detected in any way?
Oh, here's my favorite:
| quote: | | Atheists are depressed people who are living a life of no purpose. |
Allow me to open up the floodgates a little more here:
| quote: |
Do Christians Lead Healthier Lives?
In his book God: The Evidence (Forum 1999), Patrick Glynn attempted to present a series of scientific evidence that purports to show that reason "no longer stands in the way" of believing in God. Despite having no scientific training to speak of, his PhD from Harvard is for English and American literature, Glynn claimed that his research into the physical sciences, psychology and medicine shows that there is a revolution in science away from the traditional materialistic worldview.[1] His first "evidence" was the anthropic principle which we have discussed elsewhere.
Here we look at his claim that Christians lead better lives mentally and physically and that this shows that humans are somehow "wired for faith". He also cited evidence for the efficacy of prayer.
Let us have a more detailed look at Glynn's argument..
Even if the data is correct, Glynn's conclusion that god exists does not follow.
Recently the collectors of the data, the body which funds these types of research and the data collection/interpretation methods have all been seriously called to question.
Furthermore there is evidence to the contrary - that Christianity is harmful to the individual both psychologically and physically.
We can conclude that Glynn's argument from better health fails to prove that that God exists and certainly fails to convince skeptics that Christianity becomes "more attractive" due to this.
Glynn's Argument
Glynn started by pointing out that:
[S]cientific research in psychology over the past twenty-five years has demonstrated that, far from being a neurosis or source of neuroses as Freud and his disciples claimed, religious belief is one of the most consistent correlates of overall mental health and happiness. [2]
As evidence for this statement Glynn cited a series of studies summarised and compiled by David B. Larson and Susan S. Larson published by the "National Institute of Healthcare Research" which purports to show the psychological advantage of faith. Some of the studies cited include: [3]
Non-churchgoers were four times more likely to commit suicide than frequent churchgoers. (study cited: G.W. Comstock & K.B. Partridge "Church Attendance and Health", Journal of Chronic Disease 25 (1972) p665-672)
Religious people experience lower levels of stress and depression than their non religious counterparts. They were also able to recover from surgery faster than their atheist and agnostic counterparts. (Pressman, P. et.al., "Religious Belief, Depression, and Ambulation Status in Elderly Women with Broken Hips" American Journal of Psychiatry 147 1990 758-760)
Other studies show that believers have lower drug and alcohol abuse, better marital sex (!) and better overall happiness.
Based on this examples, Glynn concluded that:
[T]he burden of the research would invite the speculation that the human mind is in some sense designed to require faith-that the religious "drive" or hunger is as powerful as any other, that the human mind does not find itself at rest until it acknowledges and develops a relationship with the godhead. [4]
In other words, we are happy only when our brains are working to (religious) specifications!
Next, again citing the work of Larson and Larson, Glynn lays out the medical evidence for religious faith:[5]
Among men, frequent churchgoers had a 40% lower risk of arteriorsclerotic heart disease than infrequent church attendees. (Comstock & Partridge, op cit)
Among women, the risk of heart disease, pulmunory emphysema and suicide were double for infrequent church goers compared to their more religious counterparts. (Comstock & Partridge, op cit)
Religious commitment is positively correlated with lower blood pressure and better general health status.
Then, citing the works of Dr. Herbert Benson, The Relaxation Response (Anchor 1975) and Timeless Healing (Simon & Schuster 1996), Glynn claimed that meditation and prayer, brought about by faith in god or something similarly transcendental, lower blood pressure levels, reduce chronic pain and generally provide significant improvements in patients with cancer, AIDS and other diseases. Glynn specifically mentioned a report by Benson from his book Timeless Healing which asserted that "thirty six percent of women with unexplained infertility became pregnant within six months of completing the program". In other words, prayers improve fertility![6]
These studies show, according to Glynn, that the human psyche is "wired for god". Significantly he disagreed with Dr. Benson that it (healthier effects of religious beliefs and prayer) could have been an evolutionary adaptation of the early human to cope with their environment. He argued that the fact that prayer actually brings about cures or remission of physical diseases shows that it could not have been derive from "purely materialistic, mechanistic forces churning blindly over time."[7]
Thus because believers are better off mentally and physically and because prayer works, god exists!..at least according to Patrick Glynn.
Back to the top
Invalid Conclusions
Even if we, for the sake of argument, accept the findings presented by Glynn as true, his conclusion-that "god exists"- does not follow.
Firstly if the correlation of health to religiosity leads one to conclude that the belief is "true" then, as Jeffrey Shallit suggested [8], shouldn't this line of reasoning be taken to it's logical conclusion? Perhaps we can find the one true religion by finding out which religion or sect boasts the healthiest adherents? If this is the case then perhaps Mormons are the adherents of the true faith. (A study done in 1989 by James Enstrom, an epidemiologist at UCLA, on 400,000 California Mormons, showed that there were 50% fewer cases of cancer among these people than the average American.)[9]
Of course most Christians would not find such a line of reasoning convincing and would probably to point the Mormon prohibitions on smoking, drinking and caffein, among others, that could account for their better overall state of health over the general public. This leads to the second possible explanation for the studies cited by Glynn. For, even if the data is correct, it is simply possible that many "normal" factors could easily account for the better health status of Christians; a "supernatural" explanation would not be needed.
As Matthews et.al. [10] pointed out many of the health benefits of religiosity can be explained quite mundanely. Religious people tend to congregate together, this gives them a sense of social support or connectedness which have been long known to be quite predictive of overall well being. Beliefs can also have a placebo effect on believers helping them cope with diseases better. Furthermore research in psychotherapy has shown that expectancy in a patient is a significant predictor of how they would respond to various therapies.
Back to the top
Flawed Data and Interpretation
The above objection is sufficient to show that there is no proof of God's existence to be found in the overall health status of the religious. Glynn probably saw this but added another argument as support for belief in God.
Even if their beliefs were to be proved illusions, religiously committed people tend to lead happier and healthier lives...[11]
Thus following Pascal, Glynn is arguing that even if a belief is untrue, it's benefits ought to make one a believer!
However, recently the data cited by Christian apologists has been seriously questioned.
First the source of the studies raises alarm bells. The work used by Glynn The Forgotten Factor in Physical and Mental Healh: What Does the Research Show? by David and Susan Larson was published by the innocently named "National Institute of Healthcare Research" (NIHR). It turns out the NIHR is funded by the Templeton Foundation which has the stated goal to reintroduce religious faith into modern life. As pointed out by Kevin Courcey, a registed nurse, the NIHR "are only willing to fund research which shows a positive link between religion and health. This puts extraordinary pressure on the researcher to find such a link." The research projects of David Larson and Herbert Benson are among the many beneficiaries of Templeton Foundation.[12]
Secondly, the methods of data collection and interpretation has been questioned by other research scientists. In a study published in the respected British medical journal, The Lancet, Richard Sloan, E. Bagiella and T. Powell, all from Columbia University, subjected many of these studies to critical scrutiny and showed that these suffer from a number of methodological flaws:[13]
Failure to Control for Intervening Variables
Many of the studies fail to control for other factors which could affect the results.
For instance in the study by P. Pressman et.al. cited by Glynn above on elderly women after hip surgery, it was reported that those who were religious generally recovered from surgery faster and were less stressed. Yet there was no control for age! In other words there is no way of knowing if the women who recovered faster were simply younger, hence had more robust health, than the others!
Another poignant example is the study by Comstock and Partridge cited by Glynn in support of the relationship between church attendance and health. As Comstock himself later admitted their study omitted considering a very important cofactor: people with poorer health were less likely to go to church! Thus it would not be surprising that people who go to church were healthier, else they would be at home convaslescing!
Failure to Control for Multiple Comparison
Many of the studies commit the error of reporting the hits and ignoring the misses. This will of course give biased results. In otherwords if one is conducting multiple statistical tests the likelihood of finding something significant becomes higher.
In one study, in which David Larson of the NIHR was listed as one of the co-authors, it was "reported that religious attendence was inversely associated with interleukin-6 in the elderly. However interleukin-6 was one of the eight variables and there was no attempt to control for multiple comparisons". The other seven results were not reported.
Conflicting Findings
Dr. Sloan and his colleagues also reported how many studies have conflicting results.
In two studies, it was reported that religious attendance has a positive correlation with lower mortality, but only in women. In another study, "neither church attendence nor religious involvement was associated with lower mortality."
In yet another study, "religious comfort and strength" supposedly correlate with more survivors of heart surgeries but "religious attendance" showed no similar correlation.
Dr. Herbert Benson's work on prayer has also been seriously questioned. In their review of Benson's book Timeless Healing,[14] Irwin and Jack Tessman had pointed out that Dr. Benson grossly exaggerated the results of his own findings. They pointed this out specifically in relation to his claim on fertility (which Glynn cited-see above): in his original study in July 1992 [15], Benson and his co-authors noted that there was no evidence that the "relaxation response" improved the conception rate. Thus Benson is claiming for something which even his own published research does not support!
Back to the top
Harmful Side Effects of Christian Beliefs
It is important amidst all this arguing about the finer points of statistical analysis, to remind ourselves that the harmful side effects of Christianity are well known. Even a cursory look into the historical record of Christianity should suffice to convince all but the most brainwashed that Christianity had wrought immeasurable harm onto the world. These calamaties-the medieval inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, the with hunts and the wars of religion-have caused literally millions of deaths. As we have shown, these are the direct consequence of Christian theology. A million deaths are more poignant than arguing whether a 0.05 significance level in the healing rate of ageing Christians after hip surgery proves God's existence!
In contrast to the minute "advantages" claimed for prayer (and the so-called "relaxation response"), we have the many who have killed themselves or their loved ones through excessive belief in the healing power of prayer and not seeking the appropriate medical attention. Nobody would argue that death is not a very healthy state!
It is also important to remember many of the studies conducted do not differentiate between "liberal" believers that tend to "pick and choose" what they like and more conservative or fundamentalist Christians who "swallow" the theology wholesale. With liberals the total Christian message does not "really take". As I mentioned in another posting, liberals are simply closet humanists! The harmful side of the Christian doctrine do not permeate their very existence. [a] With fundamentalists this is not the case and it is here that we should seriously look at the real effects of Christian beliefs.
Many psychologists have implicated fundamentalist Christianity with the genesis of the psychological disorders of schizophrenia and depression.
Behavioral scientist, Dr. Robert Ellis, has concluded that there is a strong relationship between the religiosity normally seen in fundamentalists and emotional and mental illness. According to Ellis, the religious attitude "discourages self-acceptance, self-interest, and self directedness, which are all necessary for sound mental and emotional functioning."[17].
In his book Deadly Doctrine: Health, Illness and Christian God-Talk, psychiatrist Dr. Wendell Watters, Professore Emeritus in Psychiatry at McMaster University, Ontario, Canada associated Christian doctrine with the genesis of schizophrenic disorders. He suggested that the Christian doctrine on sex, self-esteem and communication (exarcerbated by "prayer" which tends to make the believer withdraw from outside contact) among others, are major contributors in the development of schizophrenia in children with limited adaptive potential.[18]
Dr. Edmund Cohen, psychologist and ex-fundamentalist, had identified depression as one of the most common psychological disorders among fundamentalist Christians. Citing the results of a study conducted on affective disorders among the Amish which shows that depression is the most common cause of admission into mental health care facilities in this group, Dr. Cohen showed that the simpler, bucolic lifestyle is just a thin veneer for the terrifying alternative mental world they live in:
[O]ne finds that they see the whole secular culture around them as Satanic and temptation fraught; every outsider, benighted and hell bound. The Old Order Amish bucolic world always threatens to snap open a trap door beneath the feet, and send the backslider down the tubes into the no-exit concentration camp if the guard of rigidity be let down. The sect really presents, like the biblical indoctrination itself, a superbly effective set of psychological social controls...[19]
In this sense the psychological worldview of the Old Order Amish is very similar to that of many fundamentalist Christians.[b]
Certainly none of these psychologists are claiming that all fundamentalist Christians suffer from psychological disorders! Merely that the teachings of fundamentalist Christians makes one more susceptible towards such psychopathologies. As an extension of this, it is also possible that the world of the fundamentalists, with its continuous presence of the evil and good spirits, is a magnet for people who are already psychologically pathological. I couldn't help equating Dr. Wattter's description of the symptoms of schizophrenia with what I have seen in some pentecostal churches!
The schizophrenic disorders are conditions in which the individual patient manifests severe disturbances in perception, cognition, speech, emotional life, and behavior. Disturbances of perception, cognition and speech include hallucinations, delusions, loosenings of associations, excessive concreteness and symbolism, incoherence, neologisms (making up words), mutism, echolalia (repeating words spoken by others), verbigeration (word repetition), and stilted language.[21]
Conclusion
The "argument from better health" fails to convince for a few reasons:
Even if, for the sake of argument, we accept the results of the studies as presented, in no way do we have to invoke supernatural explanations for this. These could be explained mundanely, for instance, the Mormon prohibition on smoking and drinking is the direct cause of low incidence of cancer among it's adherence.
Much of the data and many of the studies conducted are flawed. Thus there is no basis to the claim that Christians in general enjoy healthier lives.
Furthermore, it is a historical fact that Christianity had been responsible for millions of deaths through it's countless persecutions of heretics, witches and wars of religion.
There is data showing that extreme forms of Christianity are actually co-factors in the genesis of psychopathologies.
Back to the top
Notes
a. Indirectly however liberals do cause harm- by providing the main raw material, lukewarm Christians, as potential converts for fundamentalist churches. In his book The Mind of the Bible Believer, psychologist and ex-fundamentalist, Edmond Cohen, mentioned the "bait and switch" method of these conversions. By firstly presenting a benign persona of the Bible, using the word "love" a lot, fundamentalist Churches are able to attract lukwarm believers who are already predisposed to beleive in this. Once they are "in" of course, the "sugar coating" disappears. This is what Dr. Cohen remarked about the role of the liberal churches here:
Ironically, the liberal preachers of the mainline denominations, by talking themselves and their followers into the notion that they had found something contemporary and gratifying for the Bible to mean, set their people up to become recruits for the new, conservative Christian hucksters. Between the attempted liberal redefinition of the Bible message and the host of distracting features to be observed in conspicuous manifestations of incomplete biblical indoctrination, the present-day Evangelical American simply does not know what he is looking at, when he encounters a conservative Christian group...The misleading biblical surface impressions are not inadvertant. Initial recruitment contacts could not succeed without them. A short description of Device I [The Benign Persona of the Bible-PT], is that a colossal bait-and-switch sales pitch is worked on the new believer.[16]
b. How does one account for the cheerfulness one normally sees in fundamentalists churches? Dr. Cohen explains it thus:
In successful and growing mini-Reformationist-churches [Dr. Cohen's term for a grouping of churches which trancends denominations-recognizable by an intensely Bible centered approach to worship and life], one encounters a well-planned and well-acted show of cheerfulness, which I now understand to be partly a compensation for the cheerlessness that would really be appropriate for the teaching, and partly, still more Device I [Presenting a "benign persona of the bible"]...it agress with our expectations that, under a discipline that so distorts normal investment of psychic energy, purposely misrouting that energy, people would feel drained and, to convince themselves, would prattle incessantly about how filled they supposedly feel. [20]
References
1. Glynn, God, The Evidence: p18-19
2. ibid: p61-62
3. ibid: p62-65
4. ibid: p74-75
5. ibid: p80-82
6. ibid: p82-89
7. ibid87-89
8. Shallit, Jeffrey "Designing the Designer: Review of 'God the Evidence'", Skeptic Magazine Vol 6 No.2 1998 p81
9. Clean Living Mormons Live Longer(Newpaper excerpt)
10. Matthews, W.J. et.al. "God's HMO: Prayer, faith, belief & physical well-being", Skeptic Magazine Vol. 8 No.2. 2000 p68
11. Glynn, op. cit.: p77
12. "Studies on Prayer and Healing Flawed", Internet Infidels Newletter May 1999
13. Sloan, RP, Bagiella, E. & Powell, T., "Religion, Spirituality and Medicine", The Lancet, 20th February 1999 Volume 353, Number 9153
"Faith-Medicine Connection Challenged", Skeptic Magazine Vol. 7 No.1 1999 p8
14. Tessman, Irwin and Tessman, Jack, "Review of Herbert Benson's 'Timeless Healing'"Science 18th April 1997 Vol. 276 p:369-370
Posner, Gary P., "Has Science Proven the "Divine" Benefits of Religion?", USA Today,August 23rd 1998
15. Benson, H. et.al. "Psychological Improvements in Infertile Women after Behavioural Treatment: A Replication", Fertility and Sterility Vol 58, p144-147 July 1992
16. Cohen, The Mind of the Bible Believer: p171
17. Ellis, Albert, "Is Religiosity Pathological?" Free Inquiry Vol 18, No.2 Spring 1988
quoted in Watters, Deadly Doctrine: p70
18. Watters, Deadly Doctrine: p137-146
19. Cohen, op cit: p389-390
20. ibid: p389
21. Watters, op cit: p138
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
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___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
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Feb-24-2004 20:53
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
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opus, no one is going to read that
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people, prove to me god isnt real!! just because something cannot be measured by science does not prove it isnt true. can science measure love?? no, but u know, that people have a feeling called love.
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your non-belief in the bible's truth is like me saying to you, the day is made of the sun and light, and night is made of the moon, and darkness, and then u saying, thats not true!
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Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
keep throughing out the blasphemies. if the 7 year tribulation is to come soon, u will all have the chance to fight christians. the abomination of desolation will declare himself as god, so u will worship him, because he will show u the signs u want to prove divinity. after that, he'll lead u through the worst time in the history of the earth...Matthew 24
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect(those saved after the rapture) those days will be shortened.
Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination(anti-christ) that causes desolation...
Revelation 13:7
He was given power to make war against the saints(christians) and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.<(the entire world)
Matthew 24
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
^^^^7 year period of terrible pain for those people left on earth after the rapture of the saints(christians). about 3 years into this period, u will see your leader, the anti-christ enter the new temple built in jerusalem, blasphemy against god, and put an idol of himself in the temples center, disgracing the temple, and declaring himself god. your leader will be given the power from satan to be able to make war against the saints left on the earth, and under him, u will be able to carry out all your desires, anything u want, youll be able to do. kill christians, torture them. u will feel an intense hatred of all christians in that time, and want to kill every last one of them. but u will not, and the last battle of armageddon will spell the end of the leader and his followers...
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LouisLaBelle, plz no longer respond in this topic, because all u have done is say some of the most hypocrital things ive ever heard. and why would u send a PM, saying "have fun burning in hell". who do u think u are?? that u are somehow better than anyone on this earth?? u, as i, as well as this entire earth deserves to die in hell. but jesus gave us the chance to be saved from this doom. maybe u have been saved from it, and maybe u havnt, u are no better than any of the people in here. that just got me angry.
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i define seculars as anyone, who's life is not devoted to any religion. atheistic, etc. if your life is not governed by a religion, then u are secular. thats my definition of it.
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most of u wont believe a thing i just said, but i along with millions of other people believe it as true. if the responses are intelligent and dont contain any personal insults of me, and my beliefs, ill keep responding. i dont insult in any way, you, or your secular, atheistic, or pagan views. so dont insult mine.
___________________
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Feb-24-2004 22:55 
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
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foregiveness is currupted under the catholic church, which i believe to not be the representative of christianity as it tries to call itself. by this statement, i am already considered a protestant, which i am. forgiveness cannot be attained by doing anything. u cant do any good work, that will grant u any forgiveness...
Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
through these passages, it is through "faith" alone that one is forgiven. one must repent, with the help of the holy spirit to give u the fighting power, the will to resist temptation to commit the same sin again. did jesus ever forgive anyone of their sins because they did an good act seven times, prayed a lot, and confessed to a jewish preist?? NO, he forgave them because they trully believed in him.
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This passage is for you LouisLaBelle.
Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
___________________
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Feb-24-2004 23:04
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squirrelly
The Phun Nun
Registered: Oct 2003
Location: In the Shower
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| quote: | Originally posted by Heinz
opus, no one is going to read that |
Actually.... I read it. 
| quote: | ------------------------
people, prove to me god isnt real!! just because something cannot be measured by science does not prove it isnt true. can science measure love?? no, but u know, that people have a feeling called love. |
For the sake of things, I'm going to have to say what others will be asking you in about .540125432543241251 seconds.... Please provide proof that he is real. (That btw, was an unbiased question considering I already stated that I do believe in a higher being, I was simply stating the question that is about to follow from your post )
| quote: | ------------------------
your non-belief in the bible's truth is like me saying to you, the day is made of the sun and light, and night is made of the moon, and darkness, and then u saying, thats not true! |
But there is documentational proof to support those claims and none to support the bible, other than, of course, the word of Christians.
| quote: | ------------------------
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
keep throughing out the blasphemies. if the 7 year tribulation is to come soon, u will all have the chance to fight christians. the abomination of desolation will declare himself as god, so u will worship him, because he will show u the signs u want to prove divinity. after that, he'll lead u through the worst time in the history of the earth...Matthew 24
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect(those saved after the rapture) those days will be shortened.
Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination(anti-christ) that causes desolation...
Revelation 13:7
He was given power to make war against the saints(christians) and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.<(the entire world)
Matthew 24
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
^^^^7 year period of terrible pain for those people left on earth after the rapture of the saints(christians). about 3 years into this period, u will see your leader, the anti-christ enter the new temple built in jerusalem, blasphemy against god, and put an idol of himself in the temples center, disgracing the temple, and declaring himself god. your leader will be given the power from satan to be able to make war against the saints left on the earth, and under him, u will be able to carry out all your desires, anything u want, youll be able to do. kill christians, torture them. u will feel an intense hatred of all christians in that time, and want to kill every last one of them. but u will not, and the last battle of armageddon will spell the end of the leader and his followers... |
What happened to straying free of threats? 
| quote: | ------------------------
LouisLaBelle, plz no longer respond in this topic, because all u have done is say some of the most hypocrital things ive ever heard. and why would u send a PM, saying "have fun burning in hell". who do u think u are?? that u are somehow better than anyone on this earth?? u, as i, as well as this entire earth deserves to die in hell. but jesus gave us the chance to be saved from this doom. maybe u have been saved from it, and maybe u havnt, u are no better than any of the people in here. that just got me angry. |
I laughed when I read the PM. 
| quote: | ------------------------
i define seculars as anyone, who's life is not devoted to any religion. atheistic, etc. if your life is not governed by a religion, then u are secular. thats my definition of it. |
Main Entry: 1sec·u·lar
Pronunciation: 'se-ky&-l&r
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French seculer, from Late Latin saecularis, from saeculum the present world, from Latin, generation, age, century, world; akin to Welsh hoedl lifetime
1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal b : not overtly or specifically religious c : not ecclesiastical or clerical
2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation
3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration
For anyone who is unclear on the definition
| quote: | ------------------------
most of u wont believe a thing i just said, but i along with millions of other people believe it as true. if the responses are intelligent and dont contain any personal insults of me, and my beliefs, ill keep responding. i dont insult in any way, you, or your secular, atheistic, or pagan views. so dont insult mine. |
Just the same as how millions of other people believe it is false. To say "I believe it is true so therefor it is" would be like me saying that I have a tail.  No one was necessarily insulting your beliefs, they were asking for proof and documentation, which is what you should expect when posting in the Political Forum
___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire
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Feb-24-2004 23:13 
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto
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| quote: | Originally posted by trancepixie17
** I believe in God, and not to offend anyone. Cryus king and others have a right to believe in who they want, because the world lets them do that. In light of the fact, there is a God and there will be a day of judgement. To that you hold everything that you have ever done in your life, good and bad. There is no man crazy enough to "make-up" the Bible, so if you believe it is not real, there are problems. Most people do not believe in God and that's fine (for them) On the day that God comes down and takes all those who abided by his commandments (the Christians) , that's when you will see for yourself. Heinz is a very good Philosopher, and critcizing his work would make you degraded. Yes, everyone has their opinion, and I should not judge. Yet, did cyrus have a choice in who he wanted to believe in? I am open to learning about new religions, cultures, etc. The one thing God will not forgive in the end is Blasphames...(denounces God, or saying that there's a "god" above him.) All in all, no one is wrong, but to enlgihten you , there is one God. And judgement day will come..... |
if there is a god.. which i highly doubt, how do you know what he thinks? How do you know he wants certain things to be followed or said and certian things no said????
Did rambling "messengers" speak to god?
Well, guess what...god told me that i am his son. I am the new messenger and whatever i say should be followed or else all of you are going to hell. A firey pit where lucifer will eat your soul.
___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V
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Feb-24-2004 23:34 
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ
Registered: May 2002
Location:
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| quote: | Originally posted by Heinz
people, prove to me god isnt real!! just because something cannot be measured by science does not prove it isnt true. can science measure love?? no, but u know, that people have a feeling called love.
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But, friend, certainly - while I cannot prove to you the non-existence of God - that is not the cause of your belief.
If the mere fact that some proposition was not or could not be disproven was sufficient to justify belief in that proposition, then one would be inclined to believe any number of absurd things. That is to say - there must be some cause, some impetus which has swayed your mind from the position of indecisiveness or ignorance, to the belief that God does in fact exist, and furthermore, that this cause is not merely the lack of proof in the non-existence of God.
I myself have encountered no such cause, no such impetus. If, as we are led to believe, every phenomenon has a cause, then the reason why I do not believe is because nothing has caused it.
And so the question which I would like to hear you answer is exactly that. What is the cause of your belief?
Best Wishes,
Arbiter
Last edited by Arbiter on Feb-24-2004 at 23:41
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Feb-24-2004 23:34
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cammie
tranceaddict
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Paradise, New Jersey
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Re: Religious debate on Jews/Passion of the Christ
| quote: | Originally posted by Heinz
This doesnt really apply to seculars so u can either flame on, or ignore this discussion, but the new Mel Gibson movie is stirring up a huge amount of controversy because many say it is anti-semetic.
many hate groups, white sepremesists a large majority have huge hate for jews. many normal people have mixed feelings about them. but it is all stemming from the belief that Jews killed Jesus. if you "dont" think about it. yes jews did kill jesus. such a horrible crime against the almighty god. but what many christians and other people alike dont understand is that, it was God's will that Jesus be crucified. The Jews actually did God's will by having jesus crucified. if jesus hadnt died in such a way, then we would not be able to be saved, have everlasting life, or ever be accepted into heaven, because of our sinful nature and unrightiousness. we would be doomed forever, because it is only by rightiousness that we are accepted into heaven, not through good works, or just because your a good guy.
jesus died for us, so that we could be saved from this doom, and if one accepts him, becomes christian, and follows the teachings of Jesus, giving up old life, starting anew, then we are righteous before god. none of this could happen if jesus hadnt died on the cross.
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maybe we should thank the jews. because all they did was unconsioussly follow God's will to save us from everlasting death. |
well, actually i believe that you are mistaken when you say "yes jews did kill jesus" . to quote the "Bible":
The Gospel of John, 18:31
Pilate said "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law."
"But we have no right to execute anyone" the Jews objected.
The Romans executed Jesus using a standard Roman method of torture/execution - crucifixion. The standard Jewish practice of execution was stoning (see martyrdom of Stephen - Acts of the Apostles 7:54-60).
I am not discounting your faith at all, but I think the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion due to the massive amounts of media action (always great for a release - means $$$$ to everyone involved in the production).
Nor am I endorsing any belief system (my family is staunch Italian Catholics, in fact, my mother believes that she has a direct line to the Holy Mother -- go figure!!!)
I feel that it is a person's right to believe in something, anything, even anti-believing if it makes them feel good about themselves and their place in the world. The fact that a person tries to shove his/her system in my face, that's what makes me angry.
___________________
ya neva know!
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Feb-24-2004 23:39
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trancepixie17
Senior tranceaddict
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Drumline
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| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
if there is a god.. which i highly doubt, how do you know what he thinks? How do you know he wants certain things to be followed or said and certian things no said????
Did rambling "messengers" speak to god?
Well, guess what...god told me that i am his son. I am the new messenger and whatever i say should be followed or else all of you are going to hell. A firey pit where lucifer will eat your soul. |
** Ok. I am not going to argue with you. We all have our own beliefs. No offense, but you said there was no god, then you said God told you you were his son....confused here! Look Cryrus, I was trying to agree with you, be on your side or something such as that. Basically incase it was brought up that everyone has their own beliefs. I do believe in God, and you just do not do things for a reason. Everything happense for a reason; good or bad. Sometimes things are there that you don't realize and God helps you realize them. Whomever you believe in, then consequently helps you. I have not too much knowledge about your religion so I can not say much. Though, in light of all of this, I am not skeptic about whether God exsists or not. I've all ready made it clear he does not forgive one thing; Blasphames....(you already denounced God). If you do not believe in him then that is your problem. All I have to say is that these type of topics can not be rationally discussed in a political way. Nevertheless, it always makes a controversy which is not necessary.
___________________
Explaining back sticking: "grip the shaft lightly, and tap the butt."
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Feb-24-2004 23:55
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