quote:

Originally posted by Shakka 35 Million people with cell phones living below the poverty line. Where exactly did you get that statistic?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-19.pdf 33.9 million (12.4% of the US population), 1999.

here is how they count that: http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/povdef.html

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-19.pdf 33.9 million (12.4% of the US population), 1999. here is how they count that: http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/povdef.html

i read it was 34.5 million in 1995

quote:

Neophono What they do lack is the cultural, political and economic influence that the only remaining superpower has.

i don't know what you mean by cultural influence, do you claim that America has the best culture in the world or most well known? i'm not going to say "australia has the bestest culture in the world" or anything like that, there is no way you can compare cultures without any implicit bias.

but i tell you what, i'd prefer to be eating frogs legs than sitting at church eating mcdonalds while watching jerry springer (assuming there is an amalgamation of church and mcdonalds in the near future..)

ph33r my generalization skillz

and St_Andrew is completely right about health care

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Clearly there is an appropriate balance between the two. We've seen some of the more catastrophic failures of inaction perpetrated by Europe throughout the past century and we've clearly seen the failures of American overreaction. Neither in itself can be said to be the "correct" approach.

so true. europe is philosophically correct, but doesn't do shit. america acts quick and effective, but steps over everything and everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Your country may enjoy the same freedoms as America, I agree. However when it comes to world influence in culture, politics and economics, I am sorry but America is second to none. I would also agrue that the potential to achieve success in America is also higher. As I just said, we have the best colleges in the world, followed by more Fortune 500 companies, and more millionaires/billionaires then any other country in the world. You can argue the evils of our non-socialized system, but I can argue the benefits. The US has always had about the same amount of religious influence on its government as it does today, and like it or not, America is the only superpower. If you're equating strength of economy to quality of life, its hard for me to believe that you could ignore the strength of the US economy. The US economy dictates the world economy, I cannot think of another economy with such weight. Sure, we may have our recessions, but our recissions are world recessions. Other countries may share similar freedoms as America does, I will not deny that. What they do lack is the cultural, political and economic influence that the only remaining superpower has. Like it or not, there is a reason Americans are so ethnocentric, for most the rest of the world does not have much bearing on their daily lives. A new president in Canada or Australia will probably not have a noticable effect on the average American. However due to the influence of America, the election of a new American president I would argue has a much greater effect on other countries of the world. This is what other countries do not share, America's influence. I think this is probably one reason we had so much international uprising during the second Gulf War. America has been in a position of solitary world dominance for two decades since the end of the cold war, but that was really the first time where America decided to act unilaterally on a large scale. I can see where for past world powers, with history rich in the kind of dominance that America now enjoys, this would be threatening and perhaps even humiliating. So when France and Germany decided to not support America, I can kind of empathize. They saw the world superpower, once content to act internationally, take it upon itself to act unilaterally when those lines of international communication failed. This again showing my difference between the two continents; Americans are not afraid to act, alone when needed.

heh.. so you're saying the fact that america being the huge superpower increases the quality of life of your citizens? i don't think that does anything apart from boosting your massive ego.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew 1. Sweden 2. Norway 3. Australia 4. Canada 5. France 6. Germany 7. Spain 8. Finland 9. Italy 10. Denmark 11. Netherlands 12. Greece 13. Japan 14. Austria 15. New Zeland 16. USA 17. Irland 18. Great Britain 19. Portugal

wtf? something must be really wrong with that statistic, there's no way that with the huge waiting lists for cirurgies and the completely wrecked system overall we'd sneak into the worldwide top 20


about the topic itself.. my opinion.. i definitely enjoy being an european, identify myself a lot with the culture and values of our continent. on the other way, american culture scares me. i have never been there, so forgive me for stupid generalizations, but what i've read on here written by americans gave me a very bad idea of a brainwashed population. brainwashed with almost fundamentalist religion taking conservatism to an worrying extreme, yet being given the illusion that they're in the 'land of the free'. and you take that supposed freedom as an arrogant argument when confronted to other cultures.
the problem is that your ability to act quick is taking america to an even higher role as a superpower, while europe's inactive and lacks organization. the idea of an america even stronger, more egocentric and more influent in the world scares me.

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quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Your country may enjoy the same freedoms as America, I agree. However when it comes to world influence in culture, politics and economics, I am sorry but America is second to none. I would also agrue that the potential to achieve success in America is also higher. As I just said, we have the best colleges in the world, followed by more Fortune 500 companies, and more millionaires/billionaires then any other country in the world. You can argue the evils of our non-socialized system, but I can argue the benefits. The US has always had about the same amount of religious influence on its government as it does today, and like it or not, America is the only superpower. If you're equating strength of economy to quality of life, its hard for me to believe that you could ignore the strength of the US economy. The US economy dictates the world economy, I cannot think of another economy with such weight. Sure, we may have our recessions, but our recissions are world recessions. Other countries may share similar freedoms as America does, I will not deny that. What they do lack is the cultural, political and economic influence that the only remaining superpower has. Like it or not, there is a reason Americans are so ethnocentric, for most the rest of the world does not have much bearing on their daily lives. A new president in Canada or Australia will probably not have a noticable effect on the average American. However due to the influence of America, the election of a new American president I would argue has a much greater effect on other countries of the world. This is what other countries do not share, America's influence. I think this is probably one reason we had so much international uprising during the second Gulf War. America has been in a position of solitary world dominance for two decades since the end of the cold war, but that was really the first time where America decided to act unilaterally on a large scale. I can see where for past world powers, with history rich in the kind of dominance that America now enjoys, this would be threatening and perhaps even humiliating. So when France and Germany decided to not support America, I can kind of empathize. They saw the world superpower, once content to act internationally, take it upon itself to act unilaterally when those lines of international communication failed. This again showing my difference between the two continents; Americans are not afraid to act, alone when needed.

I don't care about our world influence in politics or culture, to be perfectly honest. What I look at is how our citizens are being treated, what our health & education systems are like, our unemployment levels and so on. World influence on culture really rates a pretty low mention as well, as it doesn't have a direct impact on how our politicians choose to allocate funds. According to this (http://www.asiatraveltips.com/trave...Melbourne.shtml), i'm living in "The world's most liveable city', so I seem to be doing ok. Maybe world influence is more important to Americans, quite frankly I think Australians prefer to get their own house in order before deciding that our worth as a nation should be decided by what our military is like (It's actually quite good, but that's another topic altogether).

Our higher education system is perfectly adequate as well, although I'm not really familiar with what it's like in the US, I do know that we also get a lot of international students coming to study here, essentially because we have a better tertiary system than their native country does.

As for the economy point, I'm not actually making that connecting, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression there. Why is it that an economy can be strong, yet the gap between the rich and poor can still widen, and the amount of people below the poverty line can increase so sharply? Possibly because of flaws in a nation's social welfare system?

As for the opportunity point, yes there is a lot of opportunities in the US, that goes without saying. But are people necessarily equipped to utilize those opportunities? I realize that Americans tend to put a huge amount of emphasis on opportunity and so forth, so we'll probably be approaching this point from completely different viewpoints & environments. As for the religion point, are you pleased that the influence of religion on your government leads to presidents announcing that atheists shouldn't be considered American citizens, or that god told them to attack another nation? I certainly wouldn't be.

Once again, I'm not particularly concerned about our international influence. The main reason a new US (Especially if they're a conservative) president tends to have a large influence on the rest of the world is because they invariably end up starting a war before their term is up.
But yeah, it's nice to have influence, but that isn't my point. Since 'enjoys what Americans do' seems to be referring to domestic issues, I'm focussing on domestic issues more than anything else.

But was an attack on Iraq actually needed? On the basic premise of Saddam being a threat, then I would argue no, it was not needed. If the war was justified with 'Saddam kills his own people, and we have a duty to free the Iraqi people', then sure, that's an entirely different situation (Although it does beg the question as to why your army isn't invading most of the countries in Africa & the Middle East as well, hey, why stop at Iraq? Why not just invade any sovereign country you see fit?). Bush would have us believe that Saddam was a real threat to the US & it's allies. I've yet to see any evidence that backs up that claim.

Unless you can show me that (domestically) the US is 'better' than Australia, then I really don't see what you're basing your argument on.

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I am sorry this had been drug down to the level of a pissing contest, as that was not my intention. I know that I am just as much to blame as anyone, but I did not mean for this post to turn into people trying to fight as to who has the best country. I think everyone and every nation sets different standards upon itself as to why it is the best, and what makes other countries worse. This coupled with patriotism and pride make a "which country is better," debate nothing more than a shouting match.

I really do not have any hate or anger towards Europe as a whole. My family is from Italy and I have been to Europe five times now, and am returning to Italy next month. I love Europe for its history and laid-back approach to life that I find in contrast to the American life style, and very refreshing. My initial aim however was to say, and I still believe, that in the past 50 years Europe has become increasingly slow to act on their own principles, many times to a fault. America may act too soon in some situations but I will always support a government that is inclined to act too soon rather than too late.

Although I do not wish to argue further on what makes a country better than the other, I will continue to say that America's health care is the best in the world. I grew up surrounded by both the American and Italian health care systems. I have also had the opporotunity to study and experience many more during my undergraduate college years. There is a reason that America trains the most foreign doctors, has the highest amount of foreign self-pay patients, leads the world in high risk surgery, leads in medical patents, leads in trials in both medicines and techniques and leads in inpatient satisfaction and survivability. Yes, I am biased towards the industry I am part of, but I cannot find an exact parallel in any other country. It may not be "free" for all, but it is not denied to any, and we all get the same prompt (relatively), high quality care. It is also important to note that at public hospitals, those below the arbitrary poverty line recieve *free* health care, and those above that line, in a graduated manor recieve discounts. I will post my hospital's charter to show it to you.

Again, I did not want this to be a post that garners me a host of enemies. This was definatly not my motivation. I wanted to post a philosophical difference between the two continents and go from there.

Can't we all just get along?

Last edited by NeoPhono on Feb-29-2004 at 11:39

quote:

Originally posted by rizen Iraq or Vietnam were never a threat. We took out Saddam's super chemical equipped army

saddam and communism was never a threat?

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Dont like America as a country (or more specifically international actor) but have been very impressed with the Americans I have met in my life (albeit not too many). I recently went on holiday to Barcelona and stayed in a hostel with people from all over the world. Every American I met was really nice and friendly (and I felt sorry for cos they all were sayin they got quite a bit of stick off people due to America's war on terror/Iraq etc). I found the French quite arrogant and a little bit with the Australians too (altho they were a good laugh and I think Sir Wilkinson has put an end for Australian arrogance for a while )

I think Europeans are great on the whole, altho I'm pretty sure a lot of them think the English are scum, which is what we get treated like when we go there! (Usually cos we get pissed, trash the place, and generally cause considerable nuicance - but its us who pay your bloody wages in Aiya Napa, Magaluf, Ibiza and Falaraki so shut it!) We went to a bar in Barcelona, asked them waht time they shut. They asked us where we were from and after we told em we were English they told us the bar was shutting now!

I'm a big supporter of the EU and would like to see it exercise more of its strenght and I think our new Euro Army is a step in the right direction. Should give us a lot more influence and a counter to American rightwing international attitudes.

Yea, quite like Europeans (well, I am one!)

quote:

saddam and communism was never a threat?

In a word, no

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I really do not have any hate or anger towards Europe as a whole. My family is from Italy and I have been to Europe five times now, and am returning to Italy next month. I love Europe for its history and laid-back approach to life that I find in contrast to the American life style, and very refreshing.

You simply cannot make these kind of generalisations when talking about Europe. There is no 'European culture'. Europe consists of alot of cultures with alot of different mentalities. While there certainly is a laid-back attitude in Italy (especially in the south) thats far from the truth in the northern European countries. In Stockholm, Sweden there is at least as hectic a mentality as in New York or wherever.

quote:

Originally posted by Virus You simply cannot make these kind of generalisations when talking about Europe. There is no 'European culture'. Europe consists of alot of cultures with alot of different mentalities.

I totally disagree, although the countries do have seperate identities, there is in fact a European culture.

quote:

While there certainly is a laid-back attitude in Italy (especially in the south) thats far from the truth in the northern European countries. In Stockholm, Sweden there is at least as hectic a mentality as in New York or wherever.

How do you figure that?

LINK

quote:

The long working hours of US (2,000 hours per year) and Japanese workers (1,899 per year) contrasts most sharply with those of European workers, who are logging progressively fewer hours on the job, particularly in the Scandinavian countries such as Norway and Sweden where hours worked in 1997 were, respectively 1,399 and 1,522 per year.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I am sorry this had been drug down to the level of a pissing contest, as that was not my intention. I know that I am just as much to blame as anyone, but I did not mean for this post to turn into people trying to fight as to who has the best country. I think everyone and every nation sets different standards upon itself as to why it is the best, and what makes other countries worse. This coupled with patriotism and pride make a "which country is better," debate nothing more than a shouting match.

Haha, in that case, it's a three way pissing contest, as I'm rooting for Oceania rather than Europe or the US.
Oceanic pride!!!11111

I pretty much agree with what you've said there, although I do believe you can essentially ascertain which country is best to live in by looking at socio economic factors, happiness levels of the population and so forth. I think that a compromise (or middle road, if you will) needs to be found between the US position of 'Attack first, justify it later', and the standard EU 'No, we can't act at all' response. Neither position is going to produce positive results (IMO).

I'm not really familiar with the US health system, nor with the Australian system to be perfectly honest, and for that reason I don't intend to get into a debate about it.

quote:

Can't we all just get along?

Let's see...

No.

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