Comparing Spain's problem with the Palestinian one is a mistake. Spain is not literally killing and expelling Basque people from their homes and stealing their food and water everyday. Basques are seperatists, they wish to separate from Spain. Palestinians wish to gain their homeland back from military rule. Palestinians are fighting for independence after an invasion and destruction of their homeland. I'm not saying the Basques aren't desperate people. They have wanted to separate since the 1930s, maybe even earlier. But from the little information I know, I believe the Basques should have seriously kept negotiating and speaking out. I don't think there was a lot of effort put into that. And Spain wasn't building illegal settlements or expelling Basques from the country while the negotiations were going on in the 90s.

About Al Qaeda. They want American military bases out of the Middle East and to establish Islamic Sharia Law in the Middle East.

I would also like to see American military bases gone. Military bases actually makes a huge difference. Having bases across the world makes a country so much more powerful. In the first Gulf War, Saddam Hussein got the unexpected. Saudi Arabia allowed the US to use its land for military bases to strike Iraq. In fact, in the first Gulf war every missle that was dropped on Iraq (which was more missles used than the Second World War) were deployed from other countries far away due to US military bases in those countries.

I certainly don't want the second thing Al Qaeda wants. Neither do the majority of Arabs.

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There are very racist views on this topic, especially against arabs...

So you people think that killing the al-qaeda is the only solution?
I think that will only strenghten them.

There is NO SOLUTION for the problem of islamic terrorism. They're fundamentalists which supposedly base themselves on the Quran for their actions (supposedly, because as any other religious guide, it has to be taken with a grain of salt).
These people are reaccionaries, which don't adapt themselves to modern times. In modern times the religious guides have to have a different interpretation. Things were different when they were written...

In my view, the best solution for the atrocities commited in the name of religion would be banning religion altogether. That wouldn't be a problem for me (i'm an agnostic), but it would be a severe blow in individual liberties.
With that out of the equation, is there any other solution?
Well, maybe a long term one, with several phases.

1- Resolving the palestinian-israeli conflict (here we go again )
This is a major source of anger for the arab nation and arabs all over the world, both agaisnt jews, US and europe.

2- Democratizing the "great middle east"
Not the extremist US way, but rather in the diplomatic EU way. Like sanctions against despotic governments, ban on weapons exports to those countries, ban from international institutions, etc.

3- Creating government programmes for a better immigrant integration
So that the culture/religious shock isn't so big... in any country of the world.

I know the first 2 are utopic and the 3rd one is very difficult to achieve, so don't bother to point that.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Spanish police and military regularly launched missiles into Basque villages,

Oh boy... you are so ignorant... Spain is not Israel you know?


Much love and respect to my spanish friends... after all Spain and Portugal are pretty much the same people, little differences aside.

I second that borron ...

But i belive that there isn't n never will be a solution to this kind of problems n conflicts ...

we live in a f*cked up world due to f*cked up ppl n thats a humam conditon that will never change.

if ppl stopped trying to change other ppl point of view just because they think they'r right.
No one is right or wrong we all have to have different perspectives about life n the world we'r living.

It would be nice if ppl could just live other ppl alone, without interfere with their way of thinking n accept the differences among us human beings ( this serves for everyone ).
No one needs to be with the ones that go against their beliefs ...

but this will never happen ...
my sentiment n respect to "nuestros hermanos"

Last edited by BeeEee on Mar-13-2004 at 12:06

quote:

Originally posted by borron So you people think that killing the al-qaeda is the only solution? I think that will only strenghten them.

That's hilarious. Look at all those walking dead! They're so powerful!

Anyhow, who cares if it was ETA or al Qaeda? Destroy them both.

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Agreed.

What the *** you are agreeing with me?

quote:

Agreed - aren't we doing this already?

Stop it your scaring me now....

But the EU nations can provide better economic support for the war on terror. Currently they aren't paying for it and aren't doing much. Some nations such as Italy have been doing troop commitements, but the more money coming into Iraq the quicker and the higher the chances that Iraq will turn into a liberal democracy.

quote:

We have "beefed" up our security a notch, but I think that most of us (me at least) would protest a patriot act.

Altough most Europeans countries actually have most of the "patriot act" powers today, they seem to do little with the necessities to capture terrorist.

Had the Spanish police tortured the driver of the van who had 500kg of dynamite last week, they could have probably avert this event. Europeans are generally very averse to taking this point of view, even though if they had tortured the driver (and I'm not even talking abouttaking off eyes and limbs, simply waking him up every 5 min for 2 days) perhaps 1800 people would have been alive or uninjured today.

quote:

What good would that do? How did Bush's "axis of evil"-speech help him control events in North Korea and Iran?

I'll tell you what good. But understand you must understand this concept first. Force is as powerful when you don't use it as when you do. America doesn't have to actually use its military force in every case, many times just the threat of it is enough to make people think twice.

When Europe dismays the "axis of evil" they bring those nations a false sense of security, "Americans would never invade us the world would cry out against them". So the American theoratical force disappears, and the USA is forced to either act with REAL force, or no force at all. The middle option disappears when you don't recognize force, there is no 'theoratical force'.

For instance, imagine the USA in a world with no "internatioanl community". If it told Iran to change its policies and stop supporting terror of all kinds or else.
Well lets just sya, I don't think Iran would chose the or else bit.

So in this hypothetical the outcome would be as equal to the use of force, but just with the threat of force, no actual usage of such.

This is the same principle that makes a man under gunpoint give a the theif "all his money", because the guy is pretty sure the theif will blow out his brains if he doesn't.

Yet when you take away the threat of force, you are then left with either to do nothing, or something. And I understand Europeans are opposed to force, but by doing such you actually force the use of force in more instances then needed.

If Europe just "shuts up and stands behind the USA" more progress like this can be achieved. And most likely the demands the USA would impose to terror sponsering regiems is stop supporting terrorism (which would benifit both Europe and USA), not necissairly the dismanteling of regiemes.

well enough of that

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- This is soo bad. My condolences to the spanish people. Al Quaida has said it was them.. ETA has refuesed its them.

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quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Comparing Spain's problem with the Palestinian one is a mistake. Spain is not literally killing and expelling Basque people from their homes and stealing their food and water everyday... Palestinians are fighting for independence after an invasion and destruction of their homeland.

I don't want to get into another Israel/Palestine debate, as they're already too prevalent on this forum, and I don't think we should be comparing Spain to the Middle-East, as there is certainly little if any room for comparison...

But accusing Jews of "Stealing food and water everyday" implies that Jews just walk into Palestinian homes and take food off their tables and drain their water wells at will. I won't get into the merits of whose land is whose, but one thing that is fact is that when the Jews went to Israel it was not much more than the sandy wasteland that is a lot of the middle-east. They brought irrigation technology and developed the land, making it more fertile. If nothing else the Jews made it more productive for all. If anything, water and food are more abundant because of the Jews. I'm sure this doesn't sit well with you, but right/wrong/occupational issues aside, it is true.

Last edited by Shakka on Mar-12-2004 at 18:31

You forget humans are also part of biology. Some humans are viruses. Viruses kill until they're killed themselves. No negotiation whatsoever possible. Why do some people so strongly believe that everything in this world can be resolved through talking.

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quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant You forget humans are also part of biology. Some humans are viruses. Viruses kill until they're killed themselves. No negotiation whatsoever possible. Why do some people so strongly believe that everything in this world can be resolved through talking.

WTF??? Some humans are viruses? Who? Morpheus ane Neo? Get off the crackpipe man.

(actually, I understand what you're saying and agree with you, I just think virus is the wrong word. Some people have been brainwashed and cannot think for themselves in terms of right and wrong--their actions are dictated by someone who has influence and control over their thoughts. They basically have tunnel-vision and are in pursuit of some sort of destruction, which generally ends in their own destruction as well--much like a virus D'0h!).

People who think discussion can solve everything are idealists. Nothing wrong with their intentions, but they limit their ability to solve problems by closing off certain avenues due to their idealistic approach to things. Basically, they ensure that they will lose because they don't have the will to do what it takes to win.

quote:

Solutions for Europe: -Support the US in its war on terrorism, or at least remain silent, not like France, even if you disagree with it. Stop arguing about the necessities of fighting a brutal war such as Guantanumo Bay. -Provide economic assistance to Iraq to build a liberal democracy and champion the crusade of liberalisim throughout the middle east. -Create your own 'patriot acts' and beef up your security. -Threaten the destruction of terrorist-supporting regiems such as Iran, Syria, and Saudia Arabia. - Start condeming terrorism in all its forms strongly especially in the international forums you dominate. - Open charities and media stations to shift the Arab mind. - Build up your own military and intelligence services

And that will erradicate Islamic terrorism? Fat lot of good its done so far (seeing as Europe has actually done most of the things on your list). The ONLY way to erradicate terrorism is to erradicate the reasons why people feel the need to take up arms. Americans and Israelis more often than not simply pass this off as something inherent in Islam - well its not, I know plenty of Asians and I have never met one who has had fundamentalist veiws...guess what? They are just like us, go out, have a laugh.

Get this through your thick heads please - Europe DOES NOT have the military strength of the US. It is NOT CAPABLE of mounting any kind of large scale military operations. EU nations HAVE HELPED (unlike Israel for example) America's military operations in its war on terror.

And as for invading Saudi Arabia...what a fucking joke!!! Seriously tho, you'd expect that to be the number one target wouldn't you? They are the largest sponsor of terrorism and have made it their mission to spread fundamentalist Islamic views aroud the world...but guess what? Why did they get left out of the report into 11/9? I wonder? Anything to do with the nice little arrangements with America over oil? Wouldn't want to do anything to upset the largest oil producer in the world!!!

No, military operations are easily seen in the Muslim world as an attack on Islam. Terrorism will never go away unless you change that perception...and invading country after country only reinforces that view.

Lets say we did invade all the Middle East countries we wanted to...what would that solve? (Apart from swelling al-Qaida's ranks by 1000s) Nothing, cos al-Qaida does not have a country. How many members of al-Qaida are there with American or British passports? Alot at a guess...

quote:

Originally posted by Juanma now 131 confirmed kills and 400 hurts. Im This is incredible. Madrid is a caos. Is like the 11 September

It's awful this happened,but it's not like 9/11.

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~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Trying not to come off as a smartass because i agree with everything in your post, but was this an ironic statement? It seems to the rest of the non muslim world that al-queda does have a true following of not just middle easterners but a global pool of fresh hearts and minds to pull from. All it takes is a few to affect many in more ways one. i fuckin hate'm

I would say that they don't. They are no longer appealing to the mainstream masses of muslims, they are attracting the extremists who share their views. If you think about it, a good 70% of their attacks are directed against muslims and muslim nations. This is no longer a muslim vs. non-muslim struggle they are waging. It has become fundamentalist vs. non-fundamentalist battle. And if they continue to wage the attacks that they have been waging, then I believe that their support within the muslim community will eventually diminishh over time ... especially after the US transition of power in Iraq. Therefore, I think that the intelligent use of force over time will destroy Al-Qaeda. And once again, I would state that there is no feasible way to bargain with Al-Qaeda or give in to their demands, therefore force must be used.

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