quote:

Originally posted by Dervish You see this is the problem it's not an issue of force. It's an issue of balance and reson. These were lesons learned in 30 years of exactly these type of operations in N.I.. Simply stating "the other nations are weaker so they will use less force" is about the, ok was gonna insult but I'm gonna resist it. This is a war of hearts and minds and development not "growing a pair and blowing shit up". It's that attuitude which needs to change.

i dont know that i can agree with what you said. to me the "lessons learned in 30 years of exactly these type of operations in N.I." are a testiment that balance does not work. if the UK had not held back and dealt with the IRA in a more forceful way and taken one strong innitiative to destroy the organization at its roots, this problem may have have taken three decades and countless lives before it was solved.

i agree that this is a war of hearts, that way things must be dealt with quickly so that "sub-humans" such as Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr can dont have the chance to win the hearts of other iraqis with their poisonious idealogoy.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Sigh ... well I think Izzy said it best when he stated that the opinion of an unnamed british commander who supposedly speaks for the british command as a whole, is NOT the best of sources particularly when he brings in references to Nazism . Since we know nothing of this commander, his rank, or his credibility or authority to make such a judgment call it's an unsubstantiated report.

Well hey ... I'm all for unsubstantiated generalizations so I'll use one of my own. Since we're making references back to WW2, I think this one should do nicely:

Back in WW2 German forces fighting against british troops oft expressed the opinion that british troops only did what was expected of them, not more, they were astounded by how the british would surrender when ammunication ran out, their fuel ran low, or they were encircled, or how quickly they would abandon pursuit when it came to tea time ... General Bernard Law Mongtgomery, commander of the 8th army wrote chief of the imperial genearl staff field marshal Alan Brooke: "The trouble with our British lads is that they are not killers by nature."1

Therefore, if we are to accept the crude generalizations of the first post, perhaps we are to then accept the generalization that I provided ... that the brits are weak and ineffective when it comes to matters of war. So it's a silly generalization ... accept one or accept both. If anything, my source should have greater authenticity since I'm actually naming the source for you to critique .

/Still the preeminent godwin hater.

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1 Max Hastings, Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy, p. 317.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen The war has reached my front door. If I was capable of being in the army fighting I would be, but unfortunately I am disabled and have to rely on using my brain power.

Unfortunately using your brain power isn't helping much either. It's rather having an opposite effect.

quote:

I am not a product of right-wing propaganda because very little of it exists over here any more (except on AM radio). But I am the product of an expensive University education, love for the history channel, and a hard work ethic.

You really like to brag about how you're well educated in history, don't you?

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1+1=10

quote:

well I think Izzy said it best when he stated that the opinion of an unnamed british commander who supposedly speaks for the british command as a whole

Well there is actually something very significant in this story even if it is just one man (which if you read into it you will see it is most likely something felt throughout the entire top-brass...)

This story first appeared in the Telegraph...that is extremely significant as you would expect something like this to appear in the Guardian (especially if it is just one man)

The Telegraph is the establishment newspaper. It is extremely conservative and usually would be pro-US (like the conservative party). They would never print anything that was not felt throughout large sections of the establishment would they? Otherwise they would be creating anti-whatever feelings which they do not want to do. The fact they are trying to turn oppinion against American soldiers suggests that this is something felt right the way through the establishment, not just one man...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Well hey ... I'm all for unsubstantiated generalizations so I'll use one of my own. Since we're making references back to WW2, I think this one should do nicely:

Yes lets all make genralised nationalistic statements! Rah rah rah! Even better lets quote WW2 since it's so relevent today. I'm getting sick of the defencive, subjective, nationolistic and dogmatic responces from people on this board there are some people you just can't talk to. Not yourself actually occrider but some.

When your talking about WW2 rember thouse were conscripts not professionals. In fact my grand uncle was a commando in WW2. Who was in charge of 15 landing crafts of americans landing in Italy and when they all started running back on he gave the order to shoot them. Genrals and all. And he'd been the beach master many times and landed before all the other troops killing sentrys up close with a knife. So unrelevent as this is to the main post, I still dispute your genralisation.

Edit: You do realise he was saying they are like something in WW2 not saying anything about performance in ww2 or anything like that so it's completly unrealated.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy i agree that this is a war of hearts, that way things must be dealt with quickly so that "sub-humans" such as Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr can dont have the chance to win the hearts of other iraqis with their poisonious idealogoy.

You don't get it do you. Your hatred is just fuel to these peoples fires. When an iraqi has to choose between a westerner and and a iraqi who he perhaps knows is an arsehole. He'll still chose the iraqi because he's his brother. The coilition has managed what was previously impossible and brung Shia and Sunni who have been against each other since probebly before the USA even existed togeather in mutal haterid. Thats a hell of a hard thing to do.

Edit: >>>>>Linkey <<<<<

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

Last edited by Dervish on Apr-13-2004 at 12:19

US Soldiers spend 3-6 months in basic training to learn how to survive and kill people. I dont think I ever saw peace keeping and babysitting classes in the basic training courses.

How are they supposed to think of Iraqi's? Sub-human might be a bit harsh. When you're sent to fight somewhere the last thought on a soldiers mind is their human rights. All they have in their brain is someone 50 yards over there is trying to shoot them.

Then one magical day some idiot declares "mission accomplished" and they're supposed to go into peacekeeping mode?

They're on a constant high and low for peacekeeping and getting their head blown off. Someone said something about this cease fire is better for them and he was right. All this is doing is giving them time to regroup and then come at the forces again.

Im all for the UN stepping in and taking over. They should have a long time ago. I doubt anything would have been "better". Probably would be in just about the same situation if not worse right now but US Forces wouldnt be the one to blame anymore.

This is a pretty good Summary -

Blair declared: "We are locked in a historic struggle in Iraq.

The problem, he said, is those who doubt the cause of the U.S.-led coalition. "Faced with this struggle, on which our own fate hangs, a significant part of Western opinion is sitting back, if not half-hoping we fail, certainly replete with schadenfreude at the difficulty we find." The only beneficiaries of this skepticism, he argued, will be "dictators, fanatics and terrorists.

If we withdraw from Iraq, they will tell us to withdraw from Afghanistan and, after that, to withdraw from the Middle East completely and, after that, who knows? But one thing is for sure: they have faith in our weakness just as they have faith in their own religious fanaticism. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us."

Washington Post 4-13-04


on a side note- Can we have Tony Blair? I'd vote for him.
he's just so proper (although just another puppet but at
least he doesnt create a bushism daily).

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I've never felt alone... 'Till I met you

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew and yeah i agree with Diehard_clubber on this one, it looks like the british has used more sucessfull tactics (even though they had easier areas..)...

This thread is summed up in this commentary, take the British and put them in Fallujah and we will see how successful the tactics are in the end. If the British are indeed better at dealing with security why aren't they in these towns instead of American troops, or moreover working with American troops in such violent cities.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan This thread is summed up in this commentary, take the British and put them in Fallujah and we will see how successful the tactics are in the end. If the British are indeed better at dealing with security why aren't they in these towns instead of American troops, or moreover working with American troops in such violent cities.

Probly cos a) there are shit loads more Americans in Iraq and b) America would never take orders from us (as we would have to have control over the US army to make them act how we want)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Probly cos a) there are shit loads more Americans in Iraq and b) America would never take orders from us (as we would have to have control over the US army to make them act how we want)

C'mon I'm sure a couple of the Brits can be sent to Fallujah, compared to Basra that is hell. I know what you mean though, all of these things get political in the end. Either way I just hope the violence dies down so both can get the hell out of there sooner than later.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Aw you guys scared poor fuzzy awaay